In Brink, you won’t have problem switching classes cause you don’t have to die for that, and they’re basically the same gear. You will gain more XP by switching to a rarer class cause first, there is usually a XP bonus just by doing that (it has been showed a couple time now in the objective wheel, some 100 or 200 XP points for going to X class), and, has in any other game, someone with a rarer class will be more effective than a more used class, make it a sniper in BFBC2, other player can shoot your target, a soldier : other people can thow ammo crates to your mates, a medic in TF2 ? Too bad there are already one sticking to that heavy, and another healing the whole team, you can stay medic but will have to share your actions with others, etc, etc.
Dependent on command post availability, just as its dependent on spawn room availability in TF2 if you don’t suicide.
and they’re basically the same gear. You will gain more XP by switching to a rarer class cause first, there is usually a XP bonus just by doing that (it has been showed a couple time now in the objective wheel, some 100 or 200 XP points for going to X class),
How many points do you get for full damage to a medium or a single revive?
and, has in any other game, someone with a rarer class will be more effective than a more used class, make it a sniper in BFBC2, other player can shoot your target, a soldier : other people can thow ammo crates to your mates, a medic in TF2 ?
This isn’t quite correct. Some classes get better in groups. BC2 medics in zombie squads are one, TF2 Demos which have reached the threshold required to continually spam all chokepoints are another.
Too bad there are already one sticking to that heavy, and another healing the whole team, you can stay medic but will have to share your actions with others, etc, etc.
A rarer class will mean more specific actions.
You’re also making the flawed assumption that players will be primarily motivated by XP. I don’t know what it is that drives entire squads in BC2 to turn sniper and sit in spawn until they drop to the bottom of the scoreboard, but it surely isn’t XP-maximizing behaviour.
Infer huh? Those all look a lot like assumptions to me!
M60s, Cable and akimbo 1887s all made it into games.
Just because it exists doesn’t make it available.
Latest build was 40 XP for a kill, I think. Revives get 175 XP.
175 is a weird number. That has to be some kind of critical revive like a revive of an objective class near the objective or something, right? Because if not, then the 200XP to change class is practically worthless.
175 XP (or around that) is a full revive : giving the seringe and having your mate use it. I personally don’t really care about XP given to you for changing class, but I’m really used to take rarer class to help balance my team, that give us more chances to win, and that drives me to play classes I won’t spend time otherwise.
Still, avantages and disadvantages of taking a class you’re not used to/you haven’t spend points in will be there, but that don’t mean it’s impossible and by doing it you will be weak. People should learn to adapt more than complaining about the game not being the same as the ten previous MP-FPS. Mostly when we haven’t had our hands on the game in question. They’ve tested it over and over again, and talked about it, it’s not a little aspect of the game, I can’t see them building it wrong.
Other games have nothing to do with the development, play-testing and balancing of Brink. You may call it an assumption. But being an assumption doesn’t automatically disqualify it or make it wrong. There might be an over-powered ability or combination of abilities. But the people making the game are striving to prevent this by thorough play-testing and tweaking. And it is more likely that most abilities are not going to be overpowered than otherwise.
This is not like them promoting a specific feature that doesn’t make the final cut. This is a design process.
No weirder than any other whole number. That is your FPS preconception talking.
[QUOTE=Herandar;273880]
This is not like them promoting a specific feature that doesn’t make the final cut. This is a design process.[/quote]
I’d rather the process be finished before release for a reasonable value of finished!
No weirder than any other whole number. That is your FPS preconception talking.
Terrible dodge and trying to place the blame on me. The actual point you didn’t address was that 175 was attached to a commonly used class ability that isn’t much less than the reward for changing class.
Then wait until May 20th and then come back and argue that there are incentives against changing class. I accept that the information we are discussion is not confirmed. You seem to accept only information that supports your position in this discussion. You can’t have it both ways. If there is doubt that the abilities are not overpowered then conversely there must be doubt that they are overpowered, and therefore doubt that they are a strong incentive to prevent players from switching class.
Terrible? I’m not arguing your point. I never intended to pass blame, though I can see how that could be read.
It isn’t exactly the end of the world if you have to switch class. Sure you might have to swap out Operative to Soldier to plant the bomb, but after that objective is finished (or even after the bomb is planted) you can go back to your original class.
[QUOTE=Herandar;273754]
Even if one team is randomly worse than the other, it is not an artifical disadvantage. Everyone on your team (and the other team) has the ability to change classes at the command post. (Also can be translated as ‘recognizing and fixing’.) You (specifically) are the person that is refusing to do this because you might lose some perks. Yes, other players may have the same mental barrier that they won’t play as the non-specialized classes with their precious specialized character. The game doesn’t prevent the player from switching class. To blame this on game design when you are the one with problem is the height of arrogance and offends me.[/quote]
To quote a game designer I’m fond of: Game Design Is Mind Control. The purpose of game design is to influence and reward behavior you want, and punish behavior you don’t want. This game design rewards selfish behavior and punishes people who try to play for the team. That’s bad game design. I (and many people) will probably take the small hit and switch to one of our weaker (non-upgraded) classes to help the team, but the game forces us to sacrifice to do this, instead of rewarding such team play.
I’m arguing game design here, not what I would do in these circumstances. Poor game design is still poor even if I defy it. The stated goal of the game is to reward and promote team-play. This skill system runs counter to that by providing a reason to stay as a single class and NOT switch to help the team.
I think you are really overestimating the effect that the abilities will have on your game. No one has to select an ability. We could play the game perfectly fine without them.
The degree to which a piece of bad game design affects actual gameplay does not change the fact that it is bad design.
“but the game forces us to sacrifice to do this, instead of rewarding such team play.”
game rewards you with higher xp for switching to a needed class, where’s the sacrifice ?
that’s rewarding teamplay, you want your individual play to be rewarded
[QUOTE=Bridger;273992]To quote a game designer I’m fond of: Game Design Is Mind Control. The purpose of game design is to influence and reward behavior you want, and punish behavior you don’t want. This game design rewards selfish behavior and punishes people who try to play for the team. That’s bad game design. I (and many people) will probably take the small hit and switch to one of our weaker (non-upgraded) classes to help the team, but the game forces us to sacrifice to do this, instead of rewarding such team play.
I’m arguing game design here, not what I would do in these circumstances. Poor game design is still poor even if I defy it. The stated goal of the game is to reward and promote team-play. This skill system runs counter to that by providing a reason to stay as a single class and NOT switch to help the team.[/QUOTE]
You have a right to your OPINION. My opinion is that the game design is a good one. You are allowed to customize your character how ever you want. SD has given all classes the tools they need to complete objectives right out of the box. That is the team play aspect.
Are you arguing that since you have to invest skill points into, lets say, life buff and are unable to use it because your didn’t buy it, the game design is poor?
[quote=Nail;273997]game rewards you with higher xp for switching to a needed class, where’s the sacrifice ?
that’s rewarding teamplay, you want your individual play to be rewarded[/quote]
What about just enjoyment from playing? Does that come with games these days or do I need to convert to XP to validate my fun?
Not sure how introducing something that weakens a player for doing the right thing is rewarding no matter how much XP you want to put on top. Because lets not forget that XP is building your character up to use abilities that you can’t even use. Hurrah!
Up to you I guess. I enjoy building a character and that requires me to get xp to level up. Enjoyment is in the eye of the beholder.
ABILITIES YOU WONT BE ABLE TO USE FOR LIKE THE 1-2 MINUTES IT TAKES TO SNATCH UP AN OBJECTIVE? the.sky.is.falling. I feel so weakened because I can’t throw out ammo to my buddies…booooo hoooo
I truly hope you have picked up on this by now, but I’ll restate it one more time. The game does not prevent players from being flexible. The game provides a ridiculous amount of options to customize, when compared to current FPS standards. Every option becomes a choice for players. Some people are paralyzed by too much choice. Some people will choose to specialize, and they will not want to play the non-specialized classes with their specialized avatar. This is not the design preventing behavior. It is the player who is stuck on a particular character and class. If the player can’t see outside of the artificial restriction they have placed on themselves, it is not because of the developers allowed them to specialize their character.
I asked you to provide me with the benefits of the current restrictive system. You instead tell me that it’s not restrictive and conveniently skip over providing any reason at all to keep it the way it is.
If I want to change my perks to suit the map/situation/mood, I can’t. That is not flexible, that’s restrictive. I’m asking what benefits to gameplay this provides. Can you stop disputing the obvious and instead respond to my question?
Actually they are not. They are nearly perfectly remaking Wolf: Enemy territory with a few minor tweaks and additions. People who say claim it’s a new paradigm are going to be disapointed unless their expectations for paradigm-shift are very low.
That’s not to say I’m not optimistic. I really enjoyed Wolf: ET and I prefer it over other types of FPS games (I stopped playing CoD after #2).
At the same time, however, different != better. Some things are the same in every FPS because the games just work better that way. Being able to change classes/abilities/weapons on the fly to adjust to the map/team situation is a good thing. It helps balance games because the abilities/weapons/classes may be situational. If you can switch to that “thing” in the correct situation, that “thing” will be useful. If you have to pick ahead of time and hope for the situation to present itself, you’re simply better off going with a more universal approach. This results in “things” that are underutilized, not because they are underpowered, but just because they are too situational to equip.
So to sum up:
Being able to switch perks and/or characters on the fly: Less frustrating and helps balance situational perks.
You build a persistent character. You can choose to be a jack-of-all trades or a specialist. Both of those have their pros and cons, but it’s a choice the player makes. If you are unhappy with your build, tough luck; you chose it.
It isn’t a flexible system; Brink is more WoW than CoD. However, you know full well what you’re getting into when you select abilities. The most apt comparison I can make is to an MMO, where people don’t complain when they can’t change from a DPS into a tank because their team needs one. And any build should be able to work 3 ability points for healing, ammo, and the damage buff.
I do agree that you should be able to change characters, though.
From Sirlin’s blog? I love that theory. It has really affected how I view games, as well as life in general.
However, the behavior that they’re encouraging is an inherent result of anonymity. Regardless of what Herander’s signature would have you believe, anonymity will generally stop people taking morality into account in the proper sense. There’s varying levels of it, but it’s almost always true on some level. People will do what is the most XP. In Black Ops, it’s worth more to kill people than to ninja-plant in Demo. Therefor, most people (there are exceptions) will kill people because they have the natural incentive (people buy FPS’s to shoot things, not as a Barbie sim, despite what Brink fans will have you believe) and they have the artificial incentive (XP). It’s worth more to let the enemy cap flags so that you can cap them back for more XP.
In Brink, you’re encouraged to play in ways that will help. There’s no reason that you need people hacking, so if you get unlucky and there’s no specialized Operatives, so what? There’s no reason you need turrets, so if you get unlucky and there’s no specialized Engineers, so what? There’s no reason you need front-line revives, so… you get the idea.
Is it optimal to not have those things? No. But we’re talking about public matches, a world of sub-optimal gameplay.
Now, if a safe needs cracking, you need an operative. If an obstruction needs to be blown up, you need a soldier. If an NPC you’re escorting needs a revive, you need a medic. But there is a strong XP incentive to do so (XP for changing classes, then XP for completing the objective. As of a year ago, since which time XP levels seem to have risen somewhat, the XP for completing an objective was a whopping 400, which is 10 kills or 6 buffs) and so they are again encouraging you to help the team by helping yourself.
