Making Phantom viable

[woodchip]

@XSheepieX said:
Well… getting back to Phantom. I will put my suggestion on what i think would improve him and why.

Firstly, Phantom’s main ability is the ability to strike at opponents from unexpected angles and flank. The EMP compliments this in that it means that when he does strike, he often doesn’t need to worry about deployables. Phantom can help his team by using his EMP and has a slight edge on enemies in that he can get the first shot.

The one big issues I have is that many times I find myself in a situation where I would like to assist my team by softening up enemies that I can see moving into position as often I’m in a good position to. But at the same time, I know it isn’t worth wasting my cloak for it. This to me feels like a major flaw for Phantom and a huge gap in his potential usefulness.

Phantom is close to being good I think, but the main issue as I see it is that the only thing for Phantom to do while cloaked is try to be in the best position for when he uncloaks. And honestly, though it is nice that Phantom can get the first shot it doesn’t always mean that much against a good player with an assault rifle or burst rifle. Sure, if you can aim you’ll get the kill, but people don’t stay still and if you don’t get the kill straight away, you are suddenly very vulnerable and likely to die. This is why i think Phantom plays better as a harasser.

“a slight edge on enemies in that he can get the first shot.”
…
" Sure, if you can aim you’ll get the kill…"

I take it you are a phantom main? When phantom opens on people he has them almost dead to rights. His SMGs (Crotzni, Kek) do AR level DPS at close range and kill a 120 HP merc in half a second of headshots.

The ambush gunfight advantage is way more than 1 bullet. Say we’re generous and the AR wielding victim has the extraordinarily fast reaction-aim time of .4 seconds. So he can react and accurately aim at the ambushing phantom in .4 seconds. .2 seconds for pure reaction and .2 seconds after to aim at phantom, plus or minus lag.

.4 seconds of Crotzni is over 50 dmg with pure bodyshots. If you were able to lineup on the head you can easily do 80 damage or more before the enemy can realistically start to fight back.

So with bad aim the phantom does about 40 damage in his opener. With good aim he does around 60+. And again, phantoms guns are as strong as ARs at close range. Whenever the phantom does more than 20(!) damage in the ‘opener’ the gunfight is phantom favored.

The phantom ambush is about as strong as it can be without being a virtual autokill in skilled hands. This is a seperate discussion from how hard it is to get that ambush (phantom being pretty visible to experienced players). When phantom gets the cold jump on you its almost over. That’s powerful. And absolutely should not be further buffed.

You’re right that phantom isn’t good at harassing people from range because he needs to spend time cloaked to get in a good ambush position. You’re wrong to say the ambush isn’t strong. Some phantoms can aim, consistently. It’s hard to pull off a true ambush, but if you do its quite good.

If you don’t believe me I play as Not All Uruk-hai. We can test.

The problem with phantom isn’t in his killing power. He’s already dangerous. It’s that getting 1 "free"ish kill after 10 seconds of manuevering isn’t enough to justify a merc that gives little else to his team except an awkward Aura counter. His cooldown and positioning dependence cap his killing contribution level at somewhere around firesupport tier, but he doesn’t give ammo or kill objectives.

I don’t know what to do to fix that. His cloak is already overloaded and confusing as it is, and adding a new ability doesn’t make much sense either.

One thing that could be useful in reducing his downtime would be an augment that increases his cloak recharge. A gen 3 card with that + tough for health regen could be good. Or maybe buff his nonsprint stealth invisibility just a touch. He’s not THAT far away from decent. An increase to his EMP range might also help his general usefulness while reducing the degree to which he gives away his position. Maybe. Phantom is a hard problem to solve.

[GatoCommodore]

phantom is good because you feel like you actually need to use your head to play that merc.
i only use the katana for 80hp mercs and even that when the merc is alone in the back.

[XSheepieX]

I understand what you are saying, but trust me, if you play against an good group of players you can’t just get free kills with Phantom. Instead you have to kind of… snipe with an smg and wait for the perfect moment a lot more. I have good aim and I know that I can’t just try to get behind the enemy like that because it just doesn’t work without backup.

Saying the first shot was a bit of an understatement, however 40-50 damage might sound good, but in most situations it means nothing. If you compare it to any other assault or recon, what they can do before someone has time to react (think Fragger) is much more. Being able to win a duel every 10 secs is nice, but really there shouldn’t really be situations where there are 1v1s generally if the teams are working well together

Phantoms ability is being able to ambush. The skill is in the preparation. You can’t make Phantom viable without increasing his combat effectiveness in some way. Currently Nader does everything Phantom can do better than he can. In practice Phantom’s cloak simply isn’t an auto-kill. It just doesn’t work that we’ll, people move fast enough for that not to be the case.

There is no getting round the fact that the EMP is good but it is complimentary to being able to attack in some way. If all you can do is EMP it isn’t really worth it at all.

When you compare Phantom to any of the other recons, it is apparent that his killing capability is considerably worse. This would be okay if he could lock down areas, but he can’t do that effectively either due to the fact that there are large gaps in his ability to do damage meaning medics can quick nullify any damage he does.

I feel like your aversion comes from a fear of Phantom becoming too potent and being annoying to play against. But what I’ve suggested would only marginally effect Phantoms killing potential and bring it into the realms of viability without making him easy to play.

And I really disagree with Phantom needing to use certain loadouts to be viable. Phantom shouldn’t need his katana to be viable. He shouldn’t need to have certain perks to be just useful.

I’m open to other people’s ideas, but considering I’ve made my suggestion what do you like/not like about it?

(Yes I am a Phantom main)

@GatoCommodore Yes you do have to use your head. I do the same. My issue is that even if you do use your head, the reward for how well you play is comparatively minuscule if you compared it with other Mercs. All the Mercs are amazing if you can play very well with them except from Phantom who instead is pretty decent/okay.

[woodchip]

@XSheepleX I think any mechanic that involves being able to do damage while staying stealthed is hugely dangerous. Like if it was done slightly wrong it could end up making a lot of people quit the game.

And I just don’t think phantom is so inherently weak or broken right now to justify taking such a big risk. We agree that his ambush is good. I don’t think its an autokill. Realistically he does between 40-70 damage in his ‘opening’. Of course you can do even less than that if you open on a target already staring in your direction or, more common, a target who already knows you’re there. But in any case phantoms ‘ambush damage’ is strong.

In practice, it’s an ‘autokill’ (80%+ phantom favored) if you open on someone from behind. It’s strongly phantom favored if you open from the side at close. It’s slightly phantom favored if you open at the side from medium. And it’s 'even’ish if you open on an AR player facing you from medium range.

I think all of that is actually great. It plays out exactly how I would want it to.

I do think, though, that pulling off these ambushes is a little too difficult. Because once you flank the enemy and start to approach at a walk in cloak, half the time someone sees you and ruins your opener. Obviously, this happens more often with more experienced players and almost never with newer ones. But in any case it feels bad and really limits how much phantom can contribute to his team when even ‘well executed’ flanks lead to random deaths from getting spotted so often. Those random deaths are especially a problem if you are trying to carry your team.

I would probably be in favor of improving phantom’s cloak concealment while walking slightly. Either by tuning the value some small% or by increasing his invisibility to distant targets specifically.

But my honest sense from playing with him is Phantom’s not far from balanced. His anti-aura thing might be janky, but it’s strong. Adding a couple stronger loadouts and boosting his cloak a touch could easily get him in a good place.

[anon41468043]

I still don’t understand how so many people overlook the guns and loadouts he and other “bad” mercs have. While abilities are important and the personality of DB, they should only be used to compliment a playstyle. I’ve said it above and I’ll say it again 'cause I’m speaking broadly here, if you cannot be effective with a gun-first mentality then you’ll never be a viable player. Unless, of course, you’re a medic.

A bad Nader will pull out her launcher in close combat or around every corner like a safety blanket.
A bad Bush will panic drop his turret while in a gun fight.
A bad Kira won’t pull her primary back out to finish off a kill or protect herself while guiding the laser.
A bad Phoenix will either fully charge their healing pulse every single time or not charge it at all.
A bad Redeye will pop smoke whenever he deems it necessary with no regard to his team.
A bad Stoker will use his molotov to get a last minute kill rather than protect a bomb plant.
A bad Skyhammer and Arty will waste an airstrike to kill a Proxy that nearly has the EV repaired rather than waiting to disable it.

… and so on.

I think it’s also worth noting that most Phantom players are trash, just like snipers. These types of sneaky assassin characters and snipers seem to attract bad players in every game simply because of the ‘cool and edgy’ factors. So, yeah, keep that in mind I guess.

There are times where I would rather have Phantom’s ability than another and having a Kek-10 or Blish on my Nader would be ridiculously strong. I personally like the SMG-9, but the Crotz, Kek, and Blish are the 3 best smgs. Yes, a lot of top-level players use the Blish because it’s more ranged and an absolute headshot machine with easily manageable recoil and predictable spread. Phantom was already an efficient killer that had no definitive role until recently with the EMP stuff and I concur with everyone else saying his problem is that he’s simply too niche of a character that isn’t beneficial in every scenario. There are a lot of mercs like this in the game, but that doesn’t mean they’re weak or ineffective. I main one of said mercs.

Phantom, in my opinion, is no different than Kira, Nader, Stoker, and Redeye.

Why choose Nader over Javelin? To flush out groups of enemies and area denial. She is not weak because she doesn’t have a primary objective or team support.

Why choose Kira over a ‘better’ assault merc with a Dreiss, Stark, or BR like Fragger or Arty? Because of her speed and the utility of the laser.

Why choose Redeye over a ‘better’ sniper like Vassili? Because his smoke is a utility that can be used to hold choke points and he’s more of a frontline aggressor than the other recons.

I think my point is clear here so I’ll stop ranting now. If Phantom were to be changed, it would have to be a very subtle tweak. He does not need more killing power. Throwing knives sound interesting and I don’t think I’d be opposed to that, but I strongly oppose any form of recon spotting as we already have enough of that as is. They can play with the EMP some more if they’d like or tweak his cloak again. I don’t really care. Anything beyond that is too much if you ask me, though. Phantom is not weak.

[Ptiloui]

@woodchip said:
One thing that could be useful in reducing his downtime would be an augment that increases his cloak recharge. A gen 3 card with that + tough for health regen could be good. Or maybe buff his nonsprint stealth invisibility just a touch. He’s not THAT far away from decent. An increase to his EMP range might also help his general usefulness while reducing the degree to which he gives away his position. Maybe. Phantom is a hard problem to solve.

I find the cooldown on the refractive armor already good and don’t need to be lower. Usually, while you uncloak, kill your target and reatreat, the ability is already usable again.
A spotting ability, like spotting deployables that you have disabled would be a great addition, but i would still be happy with an augment that grants an AOE buff.

[XSheepieX]

@woodchip I get why you say that, but that is why i’ve thought so carefully about the amount of damage Phantom would be able to deal, and the way that it would actually make Phantom even easier to spot. I know the importance of counterplay.

Yes, you are correct in that Phantom is hard to play and flank with, but my two points are that:

1. I, and i think many others, really don’t want to see Phantom become easier to play. It is possible to play him decently, just very hard. In the way that you feel being able to attack while cloaked is dangerous, I feel like an improvement of the concealment of Phantom would be very dangerous, as that is what got Phantom where he is now in the first place.
2. Secondly, even if Phantom was able to pull off flanks easier and more consistently, Phantom’s flanks simply aren’t useful enough high level for him to do any real damage and make any real impact. He would be able to deal some decent damage but then would likely die or at the very least need to retreat.

As much as yes Phantom is in a good place at the moment and he is close to being decent with a good player. But there is no getting away from the fact that he just isn’t good enough. His EMP isn’t as good as a well placed Nade, and his cloak doesn’t do anything other than partially hide him so that he can get into a good position. You can get very good with Phantom, but I honestly think that no amount of good loadouts will change the fact that he can’t compete. Besides i have my loadout that I’ve been using for over a year now. There is no other merc that relies on their loadout to be viable.

I’m not talking about Phantom being a fun Merc to play in PUBs. I’m talking about him being the only Merc who is completely just not worth it when trying to win.

@Ptiloui Phantom has Bomb Squad so it wouldn’t be useful at all for me as most of the cards i use have bomb squad anyway.

You both have said it. Phantom can get one kill and then he needs to retreat. But the issue isn’t that how easy it is to do this as infact it can be quite difficult. The issue is that this is Phantom’s max capability realistically when playing against people of a similar skill level. And when playing against people who know how to play against Phantom they won’t let you retreat as easily.

A spotting ability might help Phantom, but if you think about it, would it really make any difference at all. I mean… Why not just chose Vasili if you want a spotting ability.

Where does Phantom actually lack? What is his major flaw? If you ask me, it’s the fact that he actually can’t really kill very well, or control areas like any other recon can.

[Ptiloui]

@XSheepieX said:
@Ptiloui Phantom has Bomb Squad so it wouldn’t be useful at all for me as most of the cards i use have bomb squad anyway.

You both have said it. Phantom can get one kill and then he needs to retreat. But the issue isn’t that how easy it is to do this as infact it can be quite difficult. The issue is that this is Phantom’s max capability realistically when playing against people of a similar skill level. And when playing against people who know how to play against Phantom they won’t let you retreat as easily.

A spotting ability might help Phantom, but if you think about it, would it really make any difference at all. I mean… Why not just chose Vasili if you want a spotting ability.

Where does Phantom actually lack? What is his major flaw? If you ask me, it’s the fact that he actually can’t really kill very well, or control areas like any other recon can.

Bomb squad spots only for you and only if you have a direct line of sight, not through wall and your teammates are not aware.

I feel that everybody think Phantom is less useful because they’re mostly playing him as a lonewolf. Coordinate your flank and deployables disabling with your teammates push, i can assure you the ennemy will be wipe out.

[XSheepieX]

@Ptiloui It’s funny… I literally just came out of a discussion on discord about how I don’t think Phantom is a lonewolf.

To be completely honest, Bomb squad is kinda weird and sometimes give you wall hacks on proxy mines and stuff. effectively. Though granted the rest of the team can’t see them. How would spotting deployable make phantom viable? I mean sure phantom is good at destroying deployables, but to me, the EMP was always there to allow for phantom to effectively harrass and enable pushes and have an impact on the enemy by disrupting heal stations and stopping sticky bombs, and turrets (as well as helping others locate him). However other mercs aren’t effected by this, so focusing overly on deployables would just make phantom too specialised in a role that isn’t even needed imo.

Coordinating flanks with phantom is definitely how phantom should be played, you’re right. But if you play against a similarly organised team, it can end up leaving Phantom useless and it isn’t hard to make Phantom waste his cloak. It only takes one alert player to completely negate his ability and force him to retreat.

Phantom is far too situational at the moment. I don’t think anyone can seriously think that he is viable competitively. I’ve spent since phantom was launched trying to find a way to play phantom competitively and it is horrifically difficult. Phantoms ability atm is gimmicky as there is nothing he can actually do with it. It works okay in pubs but in ranked it doesn’t so well other than the EMP. The EMP was part buff, and part nerf. And it’s the only thing useful about phantom!

Again, he isn’t far off, but he needs something to help him actually be a threat in some way.

[GatoCommodore]

what if i told you that phantom can survive 140 dmg?
because he get away with that…

[XSheepieX]

@GatoCommodore said:
what if i told you that phantom can survive 140 dmg?
because he get away with that…

@GatoCommodore I’m not sure what exactly what you’re getting at…

Phantom has probably has the best survivability in the game. But he can’t do anything with it. And if you’re spotted while getting into position or if someone predicts where you are from your noises, you will be gunned down usually by more than one person and 140 effective HP isn’t going to stop the fact that you will die.

Phantom is forced to play in one way to be effective. You must flank at extreme angles though this simply isn’t always possible and it leaves you in a vulnerable position. I know from experience, that unless you play quite conservatively and attack from safety, a good group of players you will kill you over and over even if you try to stay hidden.

How i see Phantom, he should be able to fluidly move to different locations stay still, deal damage, and then move to another location before decloaking and finally committing to the fight at the right moment.

[woodchip]

Shouldn’t bombsquad NOT be on phantom cards? Seems like it’s pretty redundant with the EMP field.

[GatoCommodore]

@XSheepieX
thats not what i meant.

i mean phantom can dash out of trouble using cloak, tank shots and dissapear now since phantom apparently a bit more transparent.

also phantom is getting buffed each time a new mercs released (turtle, javelin).

[XSheepieX]

@woodchip Not really, I find it quite useful for targeting deployables so that you can destroy them after deactivating them. Idk I like it but I know many people find it useless.

@GatoCommodore I don’t think Phantom is any more transparent than he was before. Additionally Phantom will still not be viable if the only reason he is good is because he can temporarily deny better mercs from doing their ability. The EMP seems like a direct counter, but in practise, you just pick up the deployable and move elsewhere or wait for the decloak. It’s a minor inconvenience but it tells you that Phantom is nearby so… idk tradeoff. And besides, regardless of what Shoe said, Phantom does not counter Jav. He inconveniences her.

Also i’m not sure if he can actually dash out of trouble. The cooldown is long enough that cloaking in and then cloaking out doesn’t happen very often.

I still think that Phantom needs something additional to make him useful. Not something to make him much better, but just something to add some depth to his playstyle and allow him to do more, more often.

It’s annoying because he is useful enough now that it is hard to argue that he needs a buff or some changes, but he is bad enough that if you play him in ranked you are instantly told to switch as yes, most of the time you’re better of as a different merc.

[TheFpsPro27]

Phantom’s weapon is too weak. Just give him a shotgun, then he will be ok.

[Guziol]

I’d love a shotgun phantom. Both for the fun of it and seeing the amount of anger and frustration it would cause.

[XSheepieX]

Can we keep this serious please? Phantom will not be getting a shotgun any time soon.

I’m looking for people’s (hopefully well thought out) thought’s and suggestions on what would make Phantom viable considering why previous changes were made.

Maybe we need to consider where Phantom is currently lacking before thinking about how he could be improved…

Edit:

I’ve just had another idea…

What if Phantom’s cloak worked differently.

Perhaps shooting wouldn’t fully disrupt the cloak. As in When Phantom fires a shot, it might disrupt the cloak completely, but then the cloak would automatically, immediately (ish) turn back on.

This would allow Phantom to harass like i suggested he should be able to before. He would potentially be able to shoot form one angle, quickly relocate and fire from a completely different angle without needing to wait for the long cool down on the cloak.

I think his cooldown should probably be lowered anyway.

[TheFpsPro27]

@XSheepieX said:
Can we keep this serious please? Phantom will not be getting a shotgun any time soon.

I’m looking for people’s (hopefully well thought out) thought’s and suggestions on what would make Phantom viable considering why previous changes were made.

Maybe we need to consider where Phantom is currently lacking before thinking about how he could be improved…
Seriously, Phantom’s ability would work well with any weapon except for smgs. Here are 2 reasons for why phantom should not have a smg:

1- Phantom’s cloak lets him start shooting with a headshot, but smgs(except for blishlok) have low damage with 1 bullet so that first headshot does not make a big differance.

2- Smgs are useless at medium/long distance and phantom is very noticeable at close range. The cloak makes it easy to start shooting first at medium/long range.

Just give him any weapon except for a smg. A rifle or an assault rifle can fix phantom, no need to rework his ability.

[GatoCommodore]

@TheFpsPro27 said:

@XSheepieX said:
Can we keep this serious please? Phantom will not be getting a shotgun any time soon.

I’m looking for people’s (hopefully well thought out) thought’s and suggestions on what would make Phantom viable considering why previous changes were made.

Maybe we need to consider where Phantom is currently lacking before thinking about how he could be improved…
Seriously, Phantom’s ability would work well with any weapon except for smgs. Here are 2 reasons for why phantom should not have a smg:

1- Phantom’s cloak lets him start shooting with a headshot, but smgs(except for blishlok) have low damage with 1 bullet so that first headshot does not make a big differance.

2- Smgs are useless at medium/long distance and phantom is very noticeable at close range. The cloak makes it easy to start shooting first at medium/long range.

Just give him any weapon except for a smg. A rifle or an assault rifle can fix phantom, no need to rework his ability.

https://dirtybomb.gamepedia.com/Weapons

crotzni, Kek-10 has more headshot DPS than M4
blishlok is under M4 headshot DPS by 9 damage, it also has the highest Headshot damage in SMG category.

both Kek-10 and Crotzni also has higher Body DPS than M4
both has lower reload time than M4 and both has more ammo in magazine than M4.

it is an de facto that Kek-10 and Crotzni is among the best weapon in the game for close/medium range engagements.

i wouldnt ask for poopy Assault rifle if i were you…

[TheFpsPro27]

@GatoCommodore said:

@TheFpsPro27 said:

@XSheepieX said:
Can we keep this serious please? Phantom will not be getting a shotgun any time soon.

I’m looking for people’s (hopefully well thought out) thought’s and suggestions on what would make Phantom viable considering why previous changes were made.

Maybe we need to consider where Phantom is currently lacking before thinking about how he could be improved…
Seriously, Phantom’s ability would work well with any weapon except for smgs. Here are 2 reasons for why phantom should not have a smg:

1- Phantom’s cloak lets him start shooting with a headshot, but smgs(except for blishlok) have low damage with 1 bullet so that first headshot does not make a big differance.

2- Smgs are useless at medium/long distance and phantom is very noticeable at close range. The cloak makes it easy to start shooting first at medium/long range.

Just give him any weapon except for a smg. A rifle or an assault rifle can fix phantom, no need to rework his ability.

https://dirtybomb.gamepedia.com/Weapons

crotzni, Kek-10 has more headshot DPS than M4
blishlok is under M4 headshot DPS by 9 damage, it also has the highest Headshot damage in SMG category.

both Kek-10 and Crotzni also has higher Body DPS than M4
both has lower reload time than M4 and both has more ammo in magazine than M4.

it is an de facto that Kek-10 and Crotzni is among the best weapon in the game for close/medium range engagements.

i wouldnt ask for poopy Assault rifle if i were you…

Do not only compare DPS. At long range smgs can headshot only with first bullet, and Phantom’s cloak is better for shooting at long range. M4 might be worse than a smg for phantom, but BR-16 Dreiss-AR and Stark-AR (especially Stark-AR) would work better with phantom. What phantom needs is a long range weapon.