Is Adding Damage Indicators A Good Idea?


(Eox) #21

I wouldn’t mind it, as long as it’s an option.


(Szakalot) #22

I would. If it exists as an option - you must have it on to stay competitive. Knowing how much damage you did with your nade/aoe ability would be an obvious advantage. Im not sure numbers cluttering up your hud would be enough to balance that out.


(triteTongs) #23

Thats something, but personally I’m very curious about the exact ammount of damage gun inflicts, particularly regarding long range engagements (range/damage dependancy etc).[/quote]

The dings + healthbar is good enough for me

And look at the numbers… Does anyone have that list of damages floating around?


(Black) #24

Dirty bomb is aimed at a much more larger audience then most fps. The learning curve dirty bomb is quite small.
Indicators should always be a part of every fps, otherwise you will get players spraying and wasting their bullets thinking they are hitting a player.

Whether or not the indicators are there really has no significant difference in game nor any connections to “competitive” play.


(vdll) #25

Floating or not, here it is: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yYDiX77THpjA-hImu2eRLio-ayOvGnDEeorZgHAieVQ/edit?pli=1#gid=490808091


(avidCow) #26

We already have sounds, life bars and the now ubiquitous X indicator. Personally I don’t care what they add as long they give me the option to turn it all off.


(Daltcore) #27

@convincingMollusk I disagree. After many hours playing Counter Strike I can quite accurately guess how much damage I did to a player taking into account damage drop. As for shotgun pellets, if you have your aim on them I’m sure you can estimate their health and if they are worth chasing down/forwarding for the kill/re-treating to let a heavier class take the player out.

@brazenRoyalty Define “most fps” because I think the game is aimed at a specific audience. I don’t think the game is meant to apply to all game players. I do agree in the fact that dirty bomb has features of multiple big games. I also don’t understand your argument with the spraying? If they are spraying and their aim is bad why tell them they didn’t hit. You should be rewarded for consistent and good aim.

I think I’m playing the devils advocate a bit in this thread but I’d rather see the skill ceiling to be raised then to be lowered. Adding all these assists for your aim just rewards bad play. Spray not on target? No hit markers/hit sounds came up so he isn’t tagged. Exploded a bomb as an explosive class and heard a hit sound/saw a marker and you essentially have walls and intelligence on the team which is a big thing.

EDIT: Now I know I am referring to CS quite heavily but obviously they have done something correct to stay as a relevant competitive fps game. I may be bias but I look at a game like COD and the competitive standard just doesn’t exist in comparison. Of course I am not completely saying COD isn’t as competitive because of hit indicators but it plays a part with a host of other features. I want to see this game succeed and the views taken in this thread are very short term. You may not be able to predict damage quite yet, I sure can’t but you should be able to as you improve. In addition to this the game shown, Quake is very health/armour dependent. Now I have probably 10 hours on arena shooters so take what I say with a lot more than a grain of salt. These games seem to be orientated a lot more around health and maintaining it with positioning especially in a 1v1 mode, ie. staying near/using pick ups on the map. Personally from my low amount of time playing this game I don’t look at my health as a numerical value, it recharges and it forever changes. It’s a bar. I look at it for quick reference.

When I shoot a player with a sniper (default) I won’t call his exact health because I won’t know it (When I say this, Dirty Bomb is fast paced, yes I know I tagged him 75 but I didn’t know his initial health in most circumstances and he will most likely gain health). I’m winging what I’m writing right now so sorry for the horrid writing but I think regeneration plays the biggest part. All of my competitive experience has come from TF2 and CS and when I call in those games I call position and health. In CS having someones health value is a huge thing. 1v1 and they have 3 health? I’m going to try and running pistol them. In Dirty Bomb it doesn’t matter. They will get health from one of the many medic classes or just regeneration.

TL;DRNumerical values aren’t needed with DB’s fast paced game play and common ways of healing therefore there health is always changing. When calling I will refer to their health in an abstract way. (Eg. Low, tagged, full, half etc.)


(CCP115) #28

I feel as though they are totally needed.

Why? Well to be honest, they don’t affect the game at all. Don’t like it, turn it off. Though I would like to see the Hit sounds turned on by default, as I played my first couple of matches without even realising they existed.

After playing Quake and TF2, I can safely say that audio and visual feedback is very helpful, and while DB already has audio feedback, some sort of visual feedback would also be usual. The health bars in this game are quite small, so they aren’t overly reliable. I also feel as though if weapon stats and damage values were to be added in, there would be some learning required, like TF2, where I eventually learned all the numbers of weapon damage, class health, etc. over time.

I feel as though something all multiplayer games need:
-Big health bars, or at least good at communicating info quickly. TF2 does this incredibly well. Not necessary if you die incredibly fast, such as CS:GO or COD. The blood in DB is not good at this, you have a bloody screen at 95% health and at 10% health.
-Hit markers/indicators/noises/sounds: Whether it’s a ding, or a knock, or a cross in the middle of your screen, it seems like a basic function nowadays to have some sort of feedback. Even CS:GO has it, though to an incredibly small extent, and to be fair, it’s fine as it’s the way the game was built. Even a blood spatter is good enough info.
-Contrast: I am a retard and I need contrast. Quake and TF2 have high contrast, due to radical green player models on by default in Quake, and a Red/Blue colour sheme in TF2. Dirty Bomb does this well enough to be honest.

TL:DR No reason not to, if you don’t like it turn it off. Much more important however, ADD WEAPON STATS, and ADD HUD CUSTOMIZATION (or at least make it better)


(Daltcore) #29

@extravagentBypass You did address one issue I forgot to mention but contrast is a large issue/‘thing’ that needs to be done correctly.

[quote=“extravagentBypass;20750”]I feel as though they are totally needed.

Why? Well to be honest, they don’t affect the game at all. Don’t like it, turn it off. Though I would like to see the Hit sounds turned on by default, as I played my first couple of matches without even realising they existed.

After playing Quake and TF2, I can safely say that audio and visual feedback is very helpful, and while DB already has audio feedback, some sort of visual feedback would also be usual. The health bars in this game are quite small, so they aren’t overly reliable. I also feel as though if weapon stats and damage values were to be added in, there would be some learning required, like TF2, where I eventually learned all the numbers of weapon damage, class health, etc. over time.[/quote]

They affect the game so much more then you think, it honestly does. It isn’t about simply not liking them, it dumbs the game down. Instead of using game sense and where the enemy team is positioned and to position yourself for the predicated encounter you can for example as nader, lob a nade near a corner and it only need to do one damage and you know someone is there. For no risk you have found knowledge on the other teams potential intentions.

This type of thought pattern, at-least for me can not really be applied in-game because I simply do not have the experience to predict player positions especially when the meta is changing so fast due to the game being in a testing phase. When you say the audio and visual feedback is useful, of course it is. It doesn’t hinder you but it rewards you for not having done anything special.

I’m sorry to refer to CS again but an example of high level play being brought in for positioning and playing a risk to find intel would be using a flash-bang. Pretend you are at a choke-point, you throw a flash into an area which should (based on common knowledge of general player placements) explode in their faces. If you listen they might run/move indicating their position, you are risking a flash-bang ($200, economy, just cs stuff) and you in-turn reveal your position. If they aren’t flashed they will peek and take an easy kill.

Now lets pretend cs had these queues. I will chuck a nade onto site, it will explode and because of it’s radius I will receive queues on peoples location for almost no risk. Yes it is a different game but the same can be applied. A nader throws a nade into a room as a test for enemy presence or to count players. I seem like I keep going over what I say, and yes I am being very right wing and disagreeing with almost everyone hear but you have to think long term over short term.


(CCP115) #30

uh, I think we are definitely talking about different things here.

Firstly, flash bangs don’t deal damage, unless you directly hit the enemy, in which case I think it does like 2 damage or something small.

Secondly, I do play CS:GO, and while the only sort of hit feedback is blood splatters and very subtle headshot indicators, I acknowledge that CS is not a game built around visual or audial feedback, and that’s okay, just not my kind of game.

Thirdly, I will try to define what I think are:
a) hit markers
b) damage indicators
c) hit sounds
In TF2 and sort of in Quake, there are no hit markers, i.e. no cross in the center of your screen whenever you deal damage (COD, Loadout). It is possible to mod it in TF2, due to it’s customizability, but by default, neither Quake nor TF2 provide hit markers.
They do however, have damage indicators, which show how much damage is dealt, with a small number that floats from the player when you hit them. From my brief time in Quake, I am able to say rockets do 100 on a direct hit, and a railgun does 80. There is no way I would have known this otherwise without damage indicators. Same with TF2, without damage indicators, or “damage value indicators” if you want to be precise, I would never have known that a headshot does 150, or a critical hit is three time base damage, or Ambassador does 102 damage on headshot by default.
Hit sounds are what all multiplayer games really should have, and 99% do, even CS:GO. As the name suggests, it is just a sound that plays when damage is dealt. A misconception that I think you have is that you can see damage values through walls. YOU CANNOT, AND SHOULD NOT be able to, for very obvious balance reasons. In TF2, or Quake, if you apply DoT (flames) or explosive splash damage (hue) around a corner, you will hear a sound, such as a ding, or a donk, or whatever, and maybe see a hit marker if it’s COD. You will not see a damage value, and you will not know how much damage you have dealt.
True, you will know where enemies are, and so that is probably why hitsounds in CS:GO are extremely subtle, as to not ruin the style of the game. Yet in something like Quake, TF2, and DB, thanks to amazing technology, and speed, we can reposition (rocketjumping, bhopping, strafejumping, walljumping, flank routes, etc.) In DB with a minimap as well, it is also fairly straightforward as to where enemies will be majority of the time. TF2 does not have a minimap, so map knowledge is crucial.

Here is an example as to why hit sounds and damage values will not screw up DB, IF DONE RIGHT (I trust Splash Dmg):
In TF2, I play Pyro. I set someone on fire. Every time they get hurt by fire (twice a second), I hear a ding (HITSOUND). This is always the same volume and intensity, as afterburn is always 3 dmg per tick, or 6 per second. If the player gets affected by a minicrit debuff, I will hear the minicrit sound. I know using this audial feedback that he is on fire, and debuffed to minicrits. So far I trust that nothing is out of place? This seems like a typical scenario, that could happen in DB if flames existed (waiting for Stoker).
If the dinging stops, I know that either he has been extinguished after time, as the flames have run out, or he has picked up a health kit, or he has died. I can tell if he has either extinguished the flames as there is no kill in the killfeed, and the dinging has stopped. I also can tell if he has picked up a health kit, as I know where the nearest healthpacks are, and if they are close by, it is quite likely he has picked it up. If the dinging stops, and I see a kill in the killfeed, then I know he has died.
With me so far? Using only game/map knowledge, and audial cues, I can tell whether or not I have killed an opponent. This is what I like. Also using game/map knowledge, I can determine his relative health and map position, and whether he has taken a healthpack or not, something I find quite unique to TF2 at the moment, and I hope that Overwatch and DB can help solidify this “learning of the numbers” that I think is quite fun per se.
Back to the scenario. The whole time this has been happening, damage value indicators have been floating above his head, as he has been on fire. Every time I hear a ding, I see a 3 float up to God knows where. Useful to a certain extent, and gives you some more visual feedback. This is the make or break point, this is what I mean. WHEN THE OPPONENT GOES AROUND THE CORNER, OR INSIDE A BUILDING, THE DAMAGE VALUE INDICATORS DISSAPEAR. I am still dealing 6 dmg a second, or 3 per tick, and I can still hear the dinging, which means he is on fire, but I cannot see this damage through walls. This is where I think you were confused. The only times you are able to see damage values is when you have a line of sight directly to that player. Not only that, but the more damage I deal, the lower the pitch of the ding, and the less damage I deal, the higher the pitch. Not only that, but a critical hit has large green text, while normal damage is only small red text.
It is these audial/visual cues I am talking about. Not at any point do I see potential for it to ruin DB, only improve it. You are welcome of course to counter argue, as I may be a little bit biased towards TF2 and how amzaig it is o,mgormgsmdkmf.

Thanks for reading this wall of text, and I hope you see what I mean now.

TL;DR Hitsounds in DB already, good, could use some pitch adjustment.
Hit markers, not sure if in DB, never actually bothered to stop and think about it. Doesn’t matter much either way, hitsounds are enough to determine whether or not you have hit an enemy, though they need to be distinguishable.
Damage value indicators wouldn’t be bad, and would not change the game at all from right now, except give a better feel of how strongk ur gun is.
ALSO THESE THREE THINGS ARE ALL DIFFERENT, PLEASE TRY TO DEFINE THEM OR WE WILL ALL GET MIXED UP. Hit markers is like the X on your screen, Hit sound is the noise, and Damage Value Indicator is the number (at least in my experience.)

EDIT: They censor the word screw for some reason.
EDIT EDIT: Ok now it stopped censoring. Tis odd.


(Daltcore) #31

To address what you said;

  • I know flashbangs deal damage, but they make people move hence giving you their location without the use of any sort of cheesy indicator.
  • I know what the three main indicators, I do agree I didn’t identify them correctly and I do know they don’t appear around walls.
  • I’ve got 2k hours in TF2, and their is a reason it isn’t a competitive game. Yes I’ve read about the new platform Valve are supposedly developing but again, it is a game catered at people going into FPS’s for potentially the first time and from personal experience most competitive players that played TF2 have moved to CS:GO primarily for it suits as a competitive game much better then TF2.
  • With all the points I made I just wanted to make it clear that I am looking at this from a competitive stand point as it is what I’m most interested in, hence why I use CS as evidence so much and then compare it to TF2 and COD in bad light. It’s not that I don’t like these games it’s just they aren’t competitive, or ‘as much’ as a game like CS.
  • Now to look at your example with the pyro on fire, it has been a long time since I played but mini-crits aren’t random. If he has an item equipped you will know because of the mini-crit sign above his head. In a competitive team where you relay information back to your team your team mate could apply mini-crits to the enemy in some fashion (how ever it is done, jarate, mad milk etc.) and he would call that. “Pyro taking mini-crits” etc.
  • Now I know Quake has damage indicators as shown in the video but this 1v1 situation is very, very different to a 5 on 5 game of Dirty Bomb, I could then say “but CSGO is different from Dirty Bomb” but what I’m trying to say is that it is a completely different play style and game mode.
  • You mentioned about knowing how much damage guns do, and I addressed this earlier in the thread but TF2 doesn’t have damage fall off which I am quite sure DB and CSGO both do. I however can tell you from experience how much almost all the damage all the weapons use in CS at most common ranges depending on where you hit them on their body.
  • I do agree with what you say about impacts making sounds in CS, but compared to TF2 it isn’t meant to be a sound that is distinctly different from normal play, rarely will it reveal a lot of damage. Hitting someone in the head is quite loud though. I’ve used this in my favour a few times like throwing a nade around the corner and hearing the distinct sound a nade makes on body impact because when you shoot someone majority of the time the gun sound is a lot louder then the tag.

Sorry to pick apart everything you say, nothing against you.


(Gi.Am) #32

since we have so much text already I try to make this quick.

Why we (I) don’t need/want damage indicators

  • Damage indicators are needed in rpgs (and TF2 works that way in this regards aswell) because you have alot of damage modifing elements and randomness (Armor, Crits, special abilities). DB has none of this. Your weapon makes a set amount of damage 2x for headshots and thats it.
  • DB already gives you an obscene amount of game state information that covers your 1 on 1 example pretty much. Hit markers and hit sounds are there so the out of sight scenario is covered and the healthbar and the static weapon damage roughly covers the line of sight part.
  • Damage indicators however do give advantages over the current system (if they wouldn’t we wouldn’t have this tread in the first place). Best illustrated with explosives. If I fire a nade into a group I will get a hit indicator telling me I did damage. With damage indicators I know exactly whom of the group I hit for how much. That certainty will inform my further actions. This advantage means that like hitsounds it will be a must feat. to be good in this game.
  • Performance / visibility: Damage indicators will clutter the view and to my knowledge will generate overdraw which can have a huge impact on performance especially on older riggs.
  • Damage indicators as stated are a huge part of TF2 and RPGs/MMOs no matter if it is justified I personaly perceive a game with it, as more casual on first sight (not a bad thing being casual but if your marketing revolves around being the hardcore gamers choice…).

I fully understand that people want more, accurate informations about the gamestate, always. We all long for more informations. It means better decision making, means less mistakes and less perceived randomness.
But it’s another question how much information a game should give out since the amount of information directly impacts gameplay.
Or as a friend said the other day (in regards to boxing)

“If noone makes mistakes noone gets Ko’d”

And most people find that pretty boring.


(Black) #33

@Daltcore
When I talk about most FPS, I’m not talking about PC ones, but console ones in particular which include but are not limited to: COD, Gears of War, Halo, and just any fps game you can think of that is “popular” and or recognized by many gamers.

However DB stands out by a longshot to these games. There is alot of features and mechanics in DB that suggest a relaxed and non-competitive play which ill get to in a minute. Look back at DB alpha, it looked way better and matched the theme of the “DB universe”. More dark and gloomy but now it’s all cartoonish with enemies glowing red and crap.

CS by far, is a game that was thoroughly engineered and specifically/exclusively planned for competitive play. You can tell there was extensive work put into the game to make it competitive. Guns, player mechanics, one shot kill in the head.

DB on the other hand seems to steer away from competitive playstyle. There are so many mechanics in the game that suggest it being nonsensical. You can see a players “health bar” which most fps don’t feature. Players, even ones that have like 100’s of pounds of armor on them can double jump up walls. Headshots aren’t a one shot kill, it takes 3+ headshots to kill someone. You can defuse/repair objectives without even looking at them. There is a “heal station” in which you can take bullets into the face and be healed instantly…

I can just go on and on but point being is that DB seems to be a game of more teamwork and have fun, rather then get skill, go pro, and be competitive.

This is why I don’t see a problem with adding damage number indicators.
Also the spraying argument I made was talking about is if I shoot someone, I wouldn’t know if Im doing damage to them without hitmarkers and I could be just spraying giving away my position and my teammates position missing the enemy completely.


(Szakalot) #34

[quote=“brazenRoyalty;20899”]

DB on the other hand seems to steer away from competitive playstyle. There are so many mechanics in the game that suggest it being nonsensical. You can see a players “health bar” which most fps don’t feature. Players, even ones that have like 100’s of pounds of armor on them can double jump up walls. Headshots aren’t a one shot kill, it takes 3+ headshots to kill someone. You can defuse/repair objectives without even looking at them. There is a “heal station” in which you can take bullets into the face and be healed instantly…[/quote]

realistic =/ competitive.

Don’t get how you conflate the two.


(watsyurdeal) #35

@brazenRoyalty @Gi.Am

I would disagree that the game isn’t made for competitive but that’s an entirely different discussion.

As far as damage indicators go GI.Am, there is nothing wrong with adding them in Dirty Bomb as long as they’re an option, just because you don’t like them doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be added.

As a lot of people, including myself, like to know more than just if I hit someone, but rather how much damage I did to them. Because guess what? It encourages tactics, I did x amount of damage to a guy so I’ll back off, or I took more damage than I am dealing so I need to wait for backup. Or I know it will take x amount of shots to kill a guy, so I will go for it.

That stuff is great for the Meta, because it allows for more than just aim, but actual thinking as well.


(Black) #36

[quote=“Szakalot;20901”][quote=“brazenRoyalty;20899”]

DB on the other hand seems to steer away from competitive playstyle. There are so many mechanics in the game that suggest it being nonsensical. You can see a players “health bar” which most fps don’t feature. Players, even ones that have like 100’s of pounds of armor on them can double jump up walls. Headshots aren’t a one shot kill, it takes 3+ headshots to kill someone. You can defuse/repair objectives without even looking at them. There is a “heal station” in which you can take bullets into the face and be healed instantly…[/quote]

realistic =/ competitive.

Don’t get how you conflate the two.[/quote]

In your own words explain to me what you mean by “competitive play”.


(Szakalot) #37

[quote=“brazenRoyalty;20909”][quote=“Szakalot;20901”][quote=“brazenRoyalty;20899”]

DB on the other hand seems to steer away from competitive playstyle. There are so many mechanics in the game that suggest it being nonsensical. You can see a players “health bar” which most fps don’t feature. Players, even ones that have like 100’s of pounds of armor on them can double jump up walls. Headshots aren’t a one shot kill, it takes 3+ headshots to kill someone. You can defuse/repair objectives without even looking at them. There is a “heal station” in which you can take bullets into the face and be healed instantly…[/quote]

realistic =/ competitive.

Don’t get how you conflate the two.[/quote]

In your own words explain to me what you mean by “competitive play”.

[/quote]

As little RNG, as much skill. Better team wins.

Hit markers don’t promote ‘tactics’. They dumb down the game. You no longer have to have good gamesense regarding where the enemies are/could be. Spam some AoE and enjoy hit-markers through walls.

Same reason why QW had radar banned in comp.


(Black) #38

[quote=“Szakalot;20917”][quote=“brazenRoyalty;20909”][quote=“Szakalot;20901”][quote=“brazenRoyalty;20899”]

DB on the other hand seems to steer away from competitive playstyle. There are so many mechanics in the game that suggest it being nonsensical. You can see a players “health bar” which most fps don’t feature. Players, even ones that have like 100’s of pounds of armor on them can double jump up walls. Headshots aren’t a one shot kill, it takes 3+ headshots to kill someone. You can defuse/repair objectives without even looking at them. There is a “heal station” in which you can take bullets into the face and be healed instantly…[/quote]

realistic =/ competitive.

Don’t get how you conflate the two.[/quote]

In your own words explain to me what you mean by “competitive play”.

[/quote]

As little RNG, as much skill. Better team wins.

Hit markers don’t promote ‘tactics’. They dumb down the game. You no longer have to have good gamesense regarding where the enemies are/could be. Spam some AoE and enjoy hit-markers through walls.

Same reason why QW had radar banned in comp.
[/quote]
DB is a run and gun game, litterally… If your not running while your shooting your probably going to die and Aiming down sights is a bad idea.

Hit markers don’t dumb down the game, they tell you whether or not you hit an enemy. I want you to imagine a fps without hit markers and tell me how that would work out.

Banning radars just forces the player to use team call outs, sounds, and prediction to guess where an enemy is which in my opinion is a hardcore skill factor.


(vdll) #39

There are tons of FPS without any sort of hit markers, actually.
But DB is not one of them and I don’t feel like it’s eZpZ game because of this.

If you value competitive/hardcore rules above all, just ban hit markers the fuhk out of the tournaments, problem solved, thank you.


(Szakalot) #40

[quote=“brazenRoyalty;20919”][quote=“Szakalot;20917”][quote=“brazenRoyalty;20909”][quote=“Szakalot;20901”][quote=“brazenRoyalty;20899”]

DB on the other hand seems to steer away from competitive playstyle. There are so many mechanics in the game that suggest it being nonsensical. You can see a players “health bar” which most fps don’t feature. Players, even ones that have like 100’s of pounds of armor on them can double jump up walls. Headshots aren’t a one shot kill, it takes 3+ headshots to kill someone. You can defuse/repair objectives without even looking at them. There is a “heal station” in which you can take bullets into the face and be healed instantly…[/quote]

realistic =/ competitive.

Don’t get how you conflate the two.[/quote]

In your own words explain to me what you mean by “competitive play”.

[/quote]

As little RNG, as much skill. Better team wins.

Hit markers don’t promote ‘tactics’. They dumb down the game. You no longer have to have good gamesense regarding where the enemies are/could be. Spam some AoE and enjoy hit-markers through walls.

Same reason why QW had radar banned in comp.
[/quote]
DB is a run and gun game, litterally… If your not running while your shooting your probably going to die and Aiming down sights is a bad idea.[/quote]

You are replying to somebody else or sth? cause I don’t see your point.

Hit markers don’t dumb down the game, they tell you whether or not you hit an enemy. I want you to imagine a fps without hit markers and tell me how that would work out.

I should have phrased it better. I don’t really mind hit beeps/markers on hitscan weapons. But throwing a sticky into unknown territory and a hitmarker, or +10xp splashdamage popup is basically wallhack. I’d rather play without those.

Banning radars just forces the player to use team call outs, sounds, and prediction to guess where an enemy is which in my opinion is a hardcore skill factor.

hardcore skill factor? really? Calling out where the opponents are is 99.99% of relevant team communication. What else are you going to communicate? “I have the objective?”

Everything else is readily available to all your teammates (where you are, how much HP you have, which direction you are looking, etc. etc. )