It definitely shouldn’t be punished per se, but if there was a more risk-reward aspect to it I’d be fine with that.
For example move the defenders spawns a bit further from the objective (mostly thinking about final objectives here).
Also liked Inferno’s idea of making ammo packs more meaningful.
I really dislike the suicide mechanic also.
I totally understand its use and respect people that manage to do it perfectly each and every time.
However, that said, it just feels wrong. Personally I believe it makes the game much harder to understand from a casual perspective and as silly as it sounds is really frustrating when people kill out in the middle of a fight. I think conceptually its also really contrived and jarring. For me personally the ability/need/advantage with suicide takes away any immersion I feel.
From a more systems focused point of view…
Suicide is a massive advantage and correct usage simply does make you a better/more effective player. However, certain systems and mechanics lead you away from doing it. So technically the game is trying to teach people to NOT do what is the most effective thing to do. ie, Streaks being broken by suicide and not requiring ammo.
[QUOTE=INF3RN0;527368]I’d like it if ammo bags did more than resupply. You do get 15% c/d reduction on abilities for direct ammo pack hits (maybe make it 20%?), but also if we made the ammo boxes on maps empty until filled by a FOPs or allowed packs to increase your mag size by 5-10 bullets (ofc reducing normal mag sizes by that amount) on top of giving extra clips people would run them more often. Respawning should be meant for regrouping with your team for the most part imo. The punishment for respawning should be losing ground, but because there are no forward spawns or significant side objs on most of the maps, as well as the identical spawn timers you don’t get punished for dying/respawning very often.
An idea I really liked for the game overall was a spawning system that Pixel suggested. Where in the offense have a 15s timer and defense a 25s timer, but the actual timers don’t start until the first death occurs. In this scenario you become more motivated towards pushing the objective after the first kill, knowing that you can punish the defenders the sooner you gib them out. First blood and aggressive follow up would be greatly rewarded within this system, which I am all for. This also means that respawning would mainly be used for regrouping. Personally I think this system is really needed with how the maps play, almost to the point that it might fix the awkward layouts and frustrating defensive bias.[/QUOTE]
Good post, I think the game can definitely benefit from experimenting with less rigid and more contextual spawn waves. Spawntimes based on secondary objectives, how many teammates are dead (the more are dead, the sooner you spawn e.g.), who/when dies, etc. would add some layer of complexity in the game, that is simply not there atm.
As far as suicides, I think they are here to stay, and as W:ET player I’d feel really weird without them. Even though in this game I mostly suicide to change mercs/out of ammo, there is definitely something to be said about a situation where you CAN’T suicide. Would promote little bit more passive play & posturing which is really missing from Obj/SW.
I love how Execution firefights are played, with people popping in/out of cover, regrouping/attacking together etc. ->somehow implemented into the Obj/SW format.
Well it all depends. In most cases defense already has the advantage on their side and will hold off more attacker waves anyway. What this does mean is that when attackers do get a kill, they will want to follow up on it as quickly as possible. Realistically it might take about 10-15s after the first kill to wipe the team if they are able, which would leave 10s to plant the bomb or cap the forward and get setup for the next oncoming wave of defense. I don’t think it would be all that easy, but it would give attackers more reward for making good pushes. I think attackers deserve to plant or cap the spawn when they wipe a team and it will encourage better team play on defense as a result. Since we can’t get major map overhauls and the traditional spawn system won’t solve the inherent issues with map layouts, I think this is a good solution.
Am I the only one who disagrees that the ‘main reason’ for suiciding is to replenish ammo? It’s more about regrouping and resetting your defense/attack than it is about just getting your ammo back, a strategic decision. If you punish players for trying to regroup you might as well also punish them for planting objectives, since apparently getting punished for main gameplay elements is your idea… 
The only thing I agree with, is that right now the suicide mechanic is very risk free. Even if you selfkill at exactly 0 on your respawn timer you still have about 2/3 seconds before your team actually spawns. You almost have to try to give yourself fullspawn. Take away that safety-net so that selfkilling becomes less forgiving if not done right, punish players for their own mistakes rather than punishing them ‘because you don’t like the suicide mechanic’. As far as I know, this game was supposed to be “Difficult to Learn, Impossible to Master”, catering to the casual crowd and making the game easier, dumbing things down, seems like quite a counter to what this game is trying to present itself as.
Hahaha, I can’t believe the discussion is still going on here. Selfkilling isn’t present anyway anymore (R.I.P core gameplay feature :(), so I don’t understand all the complaining.
Gross… That would make me leave the game… Thats not Stop Watch…
Maybe it would work in OBJ mode but not SW…
[QUOTE=spookify;527389]Gross… That would make me leave the game… Thats not Stop Watch…
Maybe it would work in OBJ mode but not SW…[/QUOTE]
I don’t think you know what SW is then… it’s identical to SW except that the spawn timers are directly connected to team pushes. The traditional system was too dependent on forward spawns, map layouts, etc. while this simply hard wires the timer to function properly when the action starts. You would achieve the same result in competitive SW in ET/QW by timing your pushes to put the first kill out on a max spawn timer, but since we don’t have the luxury of time to correct all the issues that conflict with that, this simply eliminates the problems without diminishing the rewards of the old system. The plus side of this also negates the argument that differentiating spawn timers becomes confusing or timer scripts are cheating, since this makes it clear for everyone during each spawn segment. Take some time to think it through and I’m sure you’ll see it.
I think 15/25 is too short for attacks tbh I think it makes players care less about their spawncycle ‘because they will spawn soon anyway’, but for the sake of discussion lets say this system gets applied: this solution creates the same problem ET had for years where spawntimes became an RNG factor(regardless of map design) which could be a deciding factor in winning or losing between equally skilled teams. And I think that we can all agree that RNG is far from ideal in a competitive setting(I honestly don’t give a bleep about pub settings, it simply doesn’t interest me). There is no perfect spawncycle system, but at least the current synced spawns mean that both teams have equal chances at using/abusing it to their advantage. Which, with it’s own flaws, I still prefer over an RNG factor. Also, imagine spawnkilling with the timer starts when first player dies. Right now when one person dies the timer keeps ticking, but if his team manages to break through he can join his still alive mates in the next wave. But if the timer starts when he dies that increases the gap for him to join his teammates.
Yea the only way I would be okay with a system of different spawn times is if you could see both your own and the enemies spawn timers, otherwise it becomes total rng. I remember back in the alpha the spawns were different and you couldn’t make smart pushes knowing when the enemy team is on a long spawn you just went for it and hoped they wouldnt be up again in 2 seconds. Obj mode has different spawn times currently and as far as i can tell there’s no way to predict the enemies spawn timer which is a shame… keep that out of competitive pls
When I made the suggestion a while back it did include a whole section on showing the spawn timer of both teams to both teams.
Was almost like a small fighting game style health bar in the top center of the screen that would fill up as people died and slowly empty, once empty the team would respawn.
Hey dude,
I think you miss understand what system we are talking about. We are not talking about a system that starts the wave timer that then continues to tick over for the rest of the match. Once all players are back up the wave stops… Until the next person dies and wave is then started again and everyone that dies in that wave respawns together. The primary reason with coming up with the system was to remove the idea of having to wait in a gamemode that is all about time. Previously (when this system was suggested) the spawn timers did not sync the way they did now. Also the timers where 30 seconds long. That would mean the best time to attack came like once every couple of min or so. This resulted in teams holding back for 30 - 40 seconds before pushing in on attack.
Since then the respawn system was changed to be mirrored. This solved some problems and made some others. For instance, right now due to travel time from the objective, the attackers DO need to basically wipe or sneak in order to get an objective as the defenders reinforcements will get their earlier every single time. It also means the best/only time to really attack is when your respawn timer is at its worse unless you plan to push up and take them out at spawn the very next wave. By doing this any progression you have made on the secondary objectives is easily reset if you fail though. All in all it just feels like its really janky and even the right things too do feel very wrong.
The time in the suggestion I made was just a baseline for testing and by no means what I think will work best. Also your opinions on the time is likely to reflect your opinion on if it should be attackers or defenders that should have the advantage on each objective. I personally believe it should be the attackers because holds like them we saw in your matches during the cup can be very boring to watch and feel frustrating to play when you know you really have a tiny chance of breaking it in the next 13 min.
map layout bias: defenders.
spawntimes+travel bias: attackers.
map layout with secondary obj done bias: attackers or balance.
I don’t know why but I don’t see spawn timers being same a problem, am I stupid? Why just not adjust the spawn points to get the same effect? for example if spawn points for defenders were further away or “optimal” defense points wouldn’t it have the same effect? I just feel like screwing with spawn timers would just make the game weird at this point.
SD does not want to do these things because of public player complaints over the years. We can’t get long spawn timers, we can’t get confusing unsynced spawn waves, and we can’t move spawn points far enough away. Perhaps future maps will be better, but dome without forward spawns will never work well and we will always have the current maps. Really Pixel’s idea of ‘segmented trigger spawn timers’ is the only idea I’ve seen so far that I think would actually relieve most of the frustration without requiring huge changes by creating a system in which spawn timers could be offset towards an offensive bias and still be perfectly understandable at all times. The maps are at fault here yes, but spawn timers within this kind of system would negate most of the problems that stem from the poor map design and objective layouts that can become overly frustrating with mirrored spawn timers.
i do not want a spawn system trying to fix the maps.
if you do something, do it right.
fix the maps.
[QUOTE=Glottis-3D;527420]i do not want a spawn system trying to fix the maps.
if you do something, do it right.
fix the maps.[/QUOTE]
This million times, I understand spawn system being helpful, but just do better maps or give community tool to do maps and let them do the free work for you lol
I still think that limiting sprint would be really good. It promotes more tactical play instead of hit and run and adds another skill mechanic.
It slows down reinforcements, while not affecting fights. When I respawn I want to plan my next attack, maybe check the minimap, but I’m running at full speed towards the objective instead. Death is just not punishing enough at the moment in my opinion
How are different spawn timers confusing? I’m trying to be as empathic as possible, but I can’t imagine how the idea of one team spawning more often than the other, represented clearly with two clocks on the UI, can cause understanding problems to anyone who played at least a few matches. The idea with spawn timets triggering on first death of a wave will lead to one person sacrificing themselves early withj the rest of the team holding back, again turning the map design into the balancing factor. You gotta think about not how a solution works if all players follow its intended course, but how they can abuse it.
That aside, with all due respect to everyone, stop trying to figure out how elements of Counter-Strike’s gameplay would fit into this game. It’s supposed to be different and making it similar is bound to kill it.