I Played A Game of Brink With 0% SPREAD!

DarkangelUK · 2011-09-11 17:25:15 UTC

The bunnyhopping isn’t that good, constant hangups on things close to you and you have no air control at all so you’re going dead straight whether you like it or not. By all means give it a try, but I didn’t like it.

murka · 2011-09-11 17:44:07 UTC

If it’s that simple to change netvars why the f has barely anyone set up such a server? A bloody simple way to make brink playable. Reduce all weapon spread by 50%, increase all health by 50%. Gives a good starting point for further balance.

I might even play brink again if someone puts such a server up.

Crytiqal · 2011-09-11 18:19:02 UTC

Basic controls I was thinking about doing for movement:

pm_jumpheight 18-36 (best range, multiples of 9)
pm_bunnyhopfriction 0
pm_slidefriction 0
pm_slideminduration 800 (decrease distance from default but increase in speed)
pm_sliderate 100 (recovers from slide faster but not ridiculous)
pm_slidevelocity 1 (keep it 1)
pm_powerslide 4 (values higher than 1 is the magic to BRINK’s bunnyhop behavior atm)

As for the spread:

g_playtestBalanceWeaponSpreadAngleMaxScale “0”
g_playtestBalanceWeaponSpreadAngleMinScale “0”
g_playtestBalanceWeaponRecoilRateScale "0

If I set all these in the server config they should be working…

Ima test it now…

EDIT:
I cannot seem to change the playtest values, it keeps saying they are read-only, even when I set them from the startup command line…

Crytiqal · 2011-09-11 18:51:49 UTC

// Movement
set pm_jumpheight 18 // (best range, multiples of 9)
set pm_bunnyhopfriction 0
set pm_slidefriction 0
set pm_slideminduration 800 // (decrease distance from default but increase in speed)
set pm_sliderate 100 // (recovers from slide faster but not ridiculous)
set pm_slidevelocity 1 // (keep it 1)
set pm_powerslide 4 // (values higher than 1 is the magic to BRINK’s bunnyhop behavior atm)

// Crosshair
// set g_playtestBalanceWeaponSpreadAngleMaxScale “0”
// set g_playtestBalanceWeaponSpreadAngleMinScale “0”
// set g_playtestBalanceWeaponRecoilRateScale "0

g_weaponSwitchTimeout “0” // default = “1.5”
g_weaponEnableAngleCreep “0” // default = “1”
g_weaponEnablePowerCreep “0” // default = “1”
g_weaponEnableViewKick “0” // default = “1”
g_weaponViewRecoilScale “0” // default = “40”
g_weaponAccuracyStateTime “0” // default = “200”
g_weaponStationaryAccuracyThreshold “680.0” // default = “80.0”
g_weaponFireCommandmapRange “2048” // default = “2048”

If someone wants to test?

type exactly as printed here in the console:

connect ‘server.team-aero.org:27019’; password ‘scrim’

coolstory · 2011-09-11 19:16:46 UTC

so no spread on that server?

Jimmy_James · 2011-09-11 19:17:20 UTC

[QUOTE=Terminator514;377592]I was just in a game of Brink where I noticed there was 0% spread on ALL weapons and I could jump about 9 feet in there air, whenever I jumped.

Having 0 spread on all weapons was pretty sweet and gave me a glimpse of what Brink could be like without so much spread; highly competitive and requiring much more skill. I say, knock the spread WAY down on all weapons and let us play Brink like this all of the time.

So, what do you guys think? Spread, some spread, or barely any?[/QUOTE]
Are you sure you weren’t playing Deus Ex: Human Revolution?

-JJ

Crytiqal · 2011-09-11 19:22:16 UTC

Just played a bit with it, and I must say it’s just annoying

everytime you get close to a wall SMART wants to do a walljump. I seriously HATE auto SMART. I am not even holding down the sprint button!! The game just thinks it knows better and it seriously pisses me off that I cannot turn of this SMART even when I am not using it!

So this just ****s up your bunnyhop to no end. And you bump into everything and you cannot move from left to right or whatever.
You can only bunnyhop straight forward untill you bump into the next object and you can turn and repeat.

So in conclusion, it might have worked but alas, SMART ****s it up

Chris2 · 2011-09-11 19:26:08 UTC

This what happens when you try make on game into another.

Crytiqal · 2011-09-11 19:29:30 UTC

Funny how SD said you could also do all SMART moves manually.
I concluded from that, that SMART isnt forced upon being used when you don’t want it. Silly me

L00fah · 2011-09-11 20:08:34 UTC

[QUOTE=Crytiqal;377610]How would spread require more skill?
Having spread would require more LUCK

Having low spread would require skill to AIM your target and kill him
Having high spread would require LUCK to kill your target

How on earth you come by that high spread requires more skill? More skill in what?[/QUOTE]

It’s all about knowing how to combat the spread. Spread, unfortunately, is a real-world thing and only the top marksmen can figure out how to work around it…
That, to me, requires more skill and patience than spamming the trigger like so many want to do.
And killing an enemy in this game requires no luck. I didn’t get 7701 kills based on pure luck… Not even mostly luck.

I do, however, think the spread in this game is a bit ridiculous.

Sidenote: You PCers must have gotten screwed on the SMART system or something. I haven’t had ANY problems with mine that couldn’t be attributed to my own error (holding down the SMART button, not placing my sight in the right location, etc.).

Crytiqal · 2011-09-11 20:45:01 UTC

The problem is that you can’t jump near a wall or SMART (even when you are not pressing SHIFT) thinks you want to perform a walljump. Which is annoying.

As for the spread, there is no compensation for it. The gun doesn’t shoot where you aim, period.
Compensation for recoil, I can imagine that. The kickback from the gun could be compensated by moving your mouse slithgly down while shooting, or shooting in bursts.
In BRINK however, the recoil is as random as the spread, making it impossible to anticipate for it or even compensate, since the guns move up/down/left/right in the most random way possible.
On top of that you have the spread and the outcome is a total lottery spray which has nothing to do with aimskill.

Cynix · 2011-09-11 21:01:40 UTC

You can control recoil because it provides you with feedback - your gun moves and you can compensate by returning your gun to its original position. You cannot control spread because it is utterly random and provides no feedback. There is absolutely no skill involved in “controlling” spread, because doing so is impossible. Even an aimbot could not “control” spread (short of a hack that disables it).

Imagine you removed all recoil from a gun and could aim it at a target and hold down the trigger without the gun barrel moving even a pixel. If the gun has massive spread you’re still going to miss the target with some bullets. Tell me, how do you expect to control spread? What actions could you possible take to make more bullets hit the target?

Also, you can’t “control” spread in real life either. There are a great many things you can control - recoil, wind compensation, temperature compensation, etc. but randomness induced by factors that are unknown to you, such as variations in the manufacture of the bullet, cannot be controlled any more in real life than in a game.

High spread causes battles to last longer. Fewer bullets hit, so people die slower. That is really its only purpose in a game. Longer battles greatly increase the importance of aiming and tracking skill, however there are better methods than spread to increase the length of battles. Low weapon damage (relative to player health) is the other way of increasing battle length. With low damage / high health, aiming and tracking skill are even more important because significantly less luck is involved.

L00fah · 2011-09-11 21:24:49 UTC

[QUOTE=Crytiqal;377709]The problem is that you can’t jump near a wall or SMART (even when you are not pressing SHIFT) thinks you want to perform a walljump. Which is annoying.

As for the spread, there is no compensation for it. The gun doesn’t shoot where you aim, period.
Compensation for recoil, I can imagine that. The kickback from the gun could be compensated by moving your mouse slithgly down while shooting, or shooting in bursts.
In BRINK however, the recoil is as random as the spread, making it impossible to anticipate for it or even compensate, since the guns move up/down/left/right in the most random way possible.
On top of that you have the spread and the outcome is a total lottery spray which has nothing to do with aimskill.[/QUOTE]

This game must be completely different to play on PC because I don’t experience those problems.
The instant my finger is off LB (SMART button for 360), I won’t bounce all around anymore. No matter what I get near.
(Thought: I still don’t understand why so many people rely on bunnyhopping… = /)

And the spread isn’t that unpredictable. Firing in bursts reduces your spread significantly. But then again I use highly accurate weaponry in-game (Bulpdaun and Euston with grip)… Don’t know what to tell ya.
I’ll have to try this game on PC sometime and maybe I’ll be able to understand…? But I don’t have that issue on the 360. Not trying to sound elitist or anything, I’m just saying…

Crytiqal · 2011-09-11 21:34:12 UTC

[QUOTE=L00fah;377718]This game must be completely different to play on PC because I don’t experience those problems.
The instant my finger is off LB (SMART button for 360), I won’t bounce all around anymore. No matter what I get near.
(Thought: I still don’t understand why so many people rely on bunnyhopping… = /)

And the spread isn’t that unpredictable. Firing in bursts reduces your spread significantly. But then again I use highly accurate weaponry in-game (Bulpdaun and Euston with grip)… Don’t know what to tell ya.
I’ll have to try this game on PC sometime and maybe I’ll be able to understand…? But I don’t have that issue on the 360. Not trying to sound elitist or anything, I’m just saying…[/QUOTE]

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&errmsg=INVALID_STATE_ERR%3A%20DOM%20Exception%2011&gl=US&rdm=4nv6e6ooo&reload=5#/watch?v=-vmSJqKW68Y

L00fah · 2011-09-11 21:38:54 UTC

That linked me to like four videos and I’m not sure I follow the point of them…
Messed up link or something?

I’m trying to understand your problem here, not fight. I don’t understand what the problem is.

Crytiqal · 2011-09-11 22:06:34 UTC

[QUOTE=L00fah;377718]
And the spread isn’t that unpredictable. Firing in bursts reduces your spread significantly. But then again I use highly accurate weaponry in-game (Bulpdaun and Euston with grip)… Don’t know what to tell ya.
I’ll have to try this game on PC sometime and maybe I’ll be able to understand…? But I don’t have that issue on the 360. Not trying to sound elitist or anything, I’m just saying…[/QUOTE]

Better link here:

(Told you I was on my smartphone )

As you can see, there is no way he can try to compensate even more than what he is already doing.
Mind you, his FOV is on 110.
As you can see by the map layout, he isn’t really that far away from his target.

L00fah · 2011-09-11 22:25:44 UTC

[QUOTE=Crytiqal;377731]Better link here:

(Told you I was on my smartphone )

As you can see, there is no way he can try to compensate even more than what he is already doing.
Mind you, his FOV is on 110.
As you can see by the map layout, he isn’t really that far away from his target.[/QUOTE]
Ah well now I understand why that doesn’t happen to me more often… I only hipfire within a certain range (like… within 10 feet in-game). I ADS almost all other times, though.

Crytiqal · 2011-09-11 22:36:46 UTC

ADS is even worse (at least for me) since the gun jumps all over the screen

This might have been reduced with the latest weapon tweaks but it was really annoying. Especially when I am supposed to be running/sliding/vaulting/jumping in this parkour shooter game.

Or wasn’t I :P?

L00fah · 2011-09-11 22:42:56 UTC

I’m a pretty big believer of burst firing. But again, I use a gripped Euston and the accuracy and stability on that thing is vicious. I don’t like almost any other weapons due to their ridiculous recoil.
The spread never struck me as much an issue… But now that I actually sit down and see it in action - I understand why my Mossington is such a piece of crap when I’m strafing around someone at a 3 foot distance and can’t hit them. -.-;

Ah… Yeah… That last bit:

Especially when I am supposed to be running/sliding/vaulting/jumping in this parkour shooter game.

That kind of drives it in for me. You’ve recruited an ally. In any other game this sort of spread and recoil would be acceptable, but due to the nature of the game it simply isn’t at home. Granted, it’s semi-realistic - but that’s the only part of Brink that is.
With the fast-paced nature of the game and movement, the spread should definitely be decreased significantly…

Points proven, friend. Points proven.

aviynw · 2011-09-11 23:20:43 UTC

[QUOTE=Cynix;377716]You can control recoil because it provides you with feedback - your gun moves and you can compensate by returning your gun to its original position. You cannot control spread because it is utterly random and provides no feedback. There is absolutely no skill involved in “controlling” spread, because doing so is impossible. Even an aimbot could not “control” spread (short of a hack that disables it).

Imagine you removed all recoil from a gun and could aim it at a target and hold down the trigger without the gun barrel moving even a pixel. If the gun has massive spread you’re still going to miss the target with some bullets. Tell me, how do you expect to control spread? What actions could you possible take to make more bullets hit the target?

Also, you can’t “control” spread in real life either. There are a great many things you can control - recoil, wind compensation, temperature compensation, etc. but randomness induced by factors that are unknown to you, such as variations in the manufacture of the bullet, cannot be controlled any more in real life than in a game.

High spread causes battles to last longer. Fewer bullets hit, so people die slower. That is really its only purpose in a game. Longer battles greatly increase the importance of aiming and tracking skill, however there are better methods than spread to increase the length of battles. Low weapon damage (relative to player health) is the other way of increasing battle length. With low damage / high health, aiming and tracking skill are even more important because significantly less luck is involved.[/QUOTE]
I agree that spread introduces a ton of luck in Brink, but I think that’s only because the way spread was implemented. When spread is implemented in a way such that it forces burst-fire, while spread will change the combat style significantly, the amount of luck is comparable.

See, in games where burst-fire is the most effective way to shoot, it is that way because SPREAD IS LOW for the first few bullets you shoot and your gun recovers accuracy quickly. While in these games spread may be ridiculously high if you hold down the trigger, it doesn’t add luck to competition, because holding down the trigger isn’t effective and no one will do it. As long as spread is low for for the first few bullets the amount of luck is comparable to a game where the spread stays low throughout like past SD games.

The reason why Brink spread DOES introduce a lot of luck is two-fold

Starting spread for the first few bullets is already high
The best guns don’t lose accuracy quickly enough, and don’t recover it quickly enough for burst fire to be the most effective way to shoot

The effect is

Your gun already starts out innacurate, so there is no way to avoid spread-luck
The most effective way to shoot is to hold down the trigger even when the spread is high, and shooting with HIGH spread introduces LOTS of luck as cynix explained

Now, I’m not saying that BRINK should force burst-fire!!! There are plenty of games that do that and I love sd games because they don’t force burst fire!!! While burst-fire games might have comparable amounts of luck to “consistently-low-spread-games” its a VERY different type of shooting mechanic, and I just don’t like it.

There is also another potentially valuable thing that spread introduces. It effectively gives different guns different “ranges.” I’m sure anyone who plays shooters knows that inaccurate guns are particularly bad for long distances, but might be fine for shorter distances. Having some guns be more accurate than others can make the game “more dynamic” as it makes each gun require a different strategy, just like other varying stats like rate of fire and damage also do.

My big issue with the Game industry is that you can retain all the benefits of spread, both the “gun dynamicness”, and the burst-fire thing if you want, WITHOUT INTRODUCING ANY LUCK AT ALL, if you replace spread with a “bullet-decay-over-time” algorithm, and a “bullet-decay-as-you-fire” algorithm, which I hope are self explanatory. Basically, have guns do less damage as distance increases by varying degrees, and have guns do less damage as you hold fire by varying degrees.

Yes, getting rid of spread entirely wouldn’t be very realistic, but who the **** cares? If you want realism, everytime you get shot, find a friend, find a hammer, and have him/her wack you over the head repeatedly.