How often do you use selfkill?

(Erkin31) #61

Though, wouldn’t be a more elegant solution to have a ‘teleport to’ option whenever a forward spawn is captured? Like a vote message:

Nop. What is good with self kill, is that you take a risk by killing yourself. You need to make a sacrifice for your team, this is the best part of the teamplay !

I don’t see where is the problem with this mechanics. This is not a flaw, this is a deep and good gameplay option. And it is the accumulation of this kind of elements which made ET and ETQW really fun to play (like the bugs of the id tech which create the differents trickjumps).

IMHO, there are no actual standards, the majority of current FPS are too limited, too simplistic, too “unruffled” and so, not fun.
The FPS which is the more played, CS, is based on old mechanics.
They doesn’t try to re-invent the wheel, they improve it without deforming it.

(chippy) #62

This is true but a /kill is not a tactic by design, more of a solution that’s come up over the course of playing and as such I feel as if there must be a better way although I have absolutely no idea what that would actually be given the current state of the game…

(.Chris.) #63

[QUOTE=tokamak;516312]Ah cheers, I thought it was about the selfkill he typed at the end of the video.

Though, wouldn’t be a more elegant solution to have a ‘teleport to’ option whenever a forward spawn is captured? Like a vote message:

'Your forward spawn has been captured, do you wish to regroup F1= yes F2=np (5 seonds remaining)"

That would make those situations happen more often without all the additional lameness of selfkill. Don’t call it a teleport of course. It’s not a respawn either. Call it a ‘regroup’. Just the entire team receiving an (optional) bonus for having captured a spawn.

That would truly recapture the spirit of W:ET and even ETQW. ETQW mainly due to the team-sizes always resulting in a whole wave deploying right after a well timed capture.

Sure, annoying for targets ‘zapping’ away mid-fight. But at least then it only applies under strict conditions and stops players from other contrived ways of respawning.[/QUOTE]

How is a pop up vote a more elegant solution? Also telling the players there is an opportunity to respawn at a new location robs them of the chance of learning this stuff for themselves, no need to spoon feed them tactics, let them figure it out on their own. Additionally in the example video there wasn’t time for a vote, the whole thing was timed to perfection, they self killed in anticipation of the flag being captured just before the respawn timer reached 0, it could have easily back fired if he didn’t capture the flag, it was quite a risk, fortunately it paid off and that what makes it pretty awesome.

(tokamak) #64

That’s just cosmetics. Could be a subtle signal + audio and a hotkey.

And it isn’t really goading players, it’s a huge bonus on top of the captured spawn. Why should only dead players benefit from that?

(montheponies) #65

[QUOTE=tokamak;516362]That’s just cosmetics. Could be a subtle signal + audio and a hotkey.

And it isn’t really goading players, it’s a huge bonus on top of the captured spawn. Why should only dead players benefit from that?[/QUOTE]

Because in the case of those that have self-killed they have taken the chance that the forward flag will be captured…your approach is basically providing all reward with no risk, or thinking, or excitement but that does seem to fit with the current DB mechanics so perhaps you’re onto something.

(tokamak) #66

I’m sorry this discussion just keeps on confusing me. At first selfkill was tauted as the best way for players to be more efficient. Quick timings on their spawn, saves ammo, health and most importantly, travel time. But now, instead of that selfkill is the best means for players who dare to risk their lives on the off-chance that a team-mate may capture a spawn.

Which one is it? Is self-kill risk-mitigation or a risk-reward?

(montheponies) #67

[QUOTE=tokamak;516378]I’m sorry this discussion just keeps on confusing me. At first selfkill was tauted as the best way for players to be more efficient. Quick timings on their spawn, saves ammo, health and most importantly, travel time. But now, instead of that selfkill is the best means for players who dare to risk their lives on the off-chance that a team-mate may capture a spawn.

Which one is it? Is self-kill risk-mitigation or a risk-reward?[/QUOTE]

Seriously? I thought you played W:ET, or did I you just spend time posting on the forums as per your involvement with DB?

In answer to your question, it can be either - depending upon the situation. If that confuses you, then perhaps you need to play something really linear.

(tokamak) #68

If it can be either then I’m seeing selfkill supported for all the wrong reasons.

If you take a detour then having to navigate your way back to the front should be considered part of the deal. Killing yourself out of that in order to mitigate the downsides isn’t clever or skilful at all.

Some costs add weight to choices which deepens the gameplay. Going on special missions like comes with a risk and not having that reset button is one of them. Or rather, see it as a reward to the survivalist players who know how to utilise the resources offered by the map and the team to keep themselves going.

In DB, capturing a forward spawn is a lot of work. It’s less of a lottery than in W:ET and still more difficult than ETQW, but rather than trying to make the act of capturing more trivial I think raising the stakes, the reward of actually capturing that point and securing it further, that’s very interesting. The reward is bestowed on the captor, not on the team-mates (they just get to share in his glory). Saying that players should be rewarded for gambling with their spawn, that’s just nonsense.

As for selfkill itself. I believe death should carry more weight in this game. Selfkill should be an option but if it’s a something that’s regularly used then you know that the cost of death simply isn’t big enough in the game.

More punishment for dying (losing progress) and more incentives for staying alive (team mates helping you out and other ways of recovery, preferably objective-driven) that’s the way forward. It feels that selfkill is just a means of covering up for that lack.

(warbie) #69

Again. Something that sounds good on paper but in reality doesn’t ring true at all. The majority of choke points in RTCW and ET had to be defended at the point. Without the ability to get back to spawn quickly it was tactically foolish to aggressively venture forth. Selfkill allowed this - to push them back and fight over forward spawns - and the result was much more interesting, varied, dynamic, and exciting gameplay for both teams. If these games weren’t so much better due to the inclusion of selfkill I could understand arguing against it, but really it should be a core gameplay feature simply because of what it adds. I’m all ears for alternative suggestions that are as interesting and have as much a beneficial impact on teamplay and gameplay.

(tokamak) #70

It doesn’t add anything. That’s what you guys are unhappy about. It’s obsolete. We’re not discussing whether it should be added or not. We’re discussing about whether it should be made relevant. Trying to make it relevant again is to make death less impactful. It’s already trivial enough as it is.

It’s a means where the end for has disappeared. It used to be a middle-man for clever tricks. Cut the middle-man and re-introduce the clever tricks in their own right.

(Sun_Sheng) #71

Or another way to look at it is that death is already too much of an “all-important” part. One of the biggest problems the game has at the moment is it’s basically team deathmatch or at best, ctf, without the railgun and the launch pads.

Instead of having what I and many others hoped for, a game with depth where tactics mattered, where teamwork mattered, etc, etc, it’s basically a game played as if it’s all about the kdr. To my mind at least, there is a place for fraggers, people who get you the kills and all that goes with that, but there needs to be an equal place for everything else. I’d rather have 10 kills and 40 deaths and get my revives in, than have 40 kills and 10 deaths and miss even one or two revives. Penalising death just gives less incentive for the med to go out and risk their neck. Especially when they already have the lowest health and the weakest weapons in the game.

If anything, in a game that is supposed to be about teamwork, death should be made an irrelevance (almost. i:e it shouldn’t really be scored/counted .)

(tokamak) #72

That’s a fair point. The game is mostly about killing and very little about area control and teamwork. But the importance of scoring kills and the importance of staying alive aren’t the same thing. It’s the lifespan that should count. Ideally the weight of dying should increase the longer a player lives. ET simulated this in part through Battlesense but that was far from perfect.

So that’s basically all I’m after. Letting players fight for their life, build something and feel the pain if someone cut that short. Makes the fighting more satisfying and it certainly makes keeping your team-mates alive more satisfying.

Voluntarily opting out whenever you like in order to gain benefits seems to fly in the face of that. What point is there in healing team-mates if they /kill for more ammo? What point is there in supplying them with ammo if the /kill for more health? What point is there in killing an enemy if he was about to ‘warp’ himself into a new spawn wave anyway? You’re not just there to be their health or ammo caddy, you’re there to make them achieve more than they could on their own.

Killing a player should feel like a real victory. Players should fear for their lives and risking it should feel like a real sacrifice. That’s when the mid-games start. That’s what will result in sweaty mouses and keyboards and euphoric screams over the voice chat.

(Sun_Sheng) #73

Well, i agree with the sentiment, but the point is that ultimately what you are doing, is being done for the benefit of the team and not the individual. that’s why I don’t mind dying 50 times in a game if needed. If I can get a revive in, die whilst doing so, but the guy that i’ve revived gets in two kills, or gets a plant down, gets a defuse in, captures a spawn, etc, etc, then I feel what i’ve done is worthwhile. The med role now has been nerfed so much that it’s not worth me playing it, it’s relatively unrewarding, but that’s a different thread. In terms of /kill, most times it’s done it functions as a benefit of the team, not the individual. Sometimes the two are the same of course.

(kohds) #74

Only start thinking about it during pug or when i’m on a no fld ops team and map isn’t positioned where you can get to ammo crates easy.

(warbie) #75

This just discourages teamplay, at least in the sense it existed in RTCW and ET. When running into choke points people at the front expected to die. Hopefully take someone with them, but they were essentially running into crossfire, getting torn up and trusting on those behind to push over them with the medics picking everyone up. Life was cheap! It’s one of the main things that set these games aside from everything else - proper teamplay, the kind you don’t get in CS and BF etc. You’re going to die but trust in your medics. The last thing we want are players hiding and not taking risks.

(Rex) #76

Discussing with tokamak is useless. Just move ahead guys. I also left my thread already, because everything is said. And if someone doesn’t like ET style gameplay - he doesn’t like it. Can’t force anyone.

(Sun_Sheng) #77

Agreed. This was the essence of things. I’ll say again, I don’t want another ET, but what I do want is an improvement. The next stage of evolution in teamplay. I started with tdm, went to ctf, then objective, and now it feels like a backward step.

In ET, if you were planting, a med would keep you alive and everyone else would literally put their body in the way of bullets and line up to block shooters angles. Everything was about completing the objective and if you had to sacrifice yourself to do it, you did. /kill was a big part of how that worked and how the teamplay functioned. People knew instinctively what to do and would base their decisions on that. That’s why /kill was the perfect answer. One key, instant action. No need for votes, contemplation, or “does it benefit me as an individual?” You knew what the team required and what was expected of you, and then you acted accordingly.

The only way to improve it from how it worked previously would be to have a big hand come out of the monitor and slap the back of the player’s head every time they missed the spawn wave :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

(Rex) #78

Hehe. :tongue: A classic noob fault or inattention. But that’s what I like about self killing, you have to learn it to get it right and you can also master it when more complex situations in a clan match for instance come along.

(tokamak) #79

I’m probably the guy with the highest deaths/min in the whole game. I know what you’re saying.

But imagine a medic who’s getting better revives, higher heals the longer he’s alive and active. Like something he’s charging up while being a good medic.

I’d like to see that dimension in the game. Every merc-type having his or her own streak-building. Like an energy bar for all the relevant actions a merc can do for it’s role that keeps building up. Like TF2’s eyelander beserk ability, or Overwatch. And then, to make killing more rewarding a transfer of your streak to your killer. That would mean higher rewards for killing players that are charged higher up.

Selfkill is still an option, but as that guy is building his medic streak and becoming a really, really fearsome support factor in his team, the weight of dying becomes higher and higher.

You’d still be able to sacrifice yourself in order to raise a team. Especially when you just respawned but you notice you’re off to a bad start. When you’re in the wrong place, wasted too much ammo or got hurt in stupid way. Rinse, repeat. But as you progress during your life the choice isn’t as easy anymore. And the choice to frivolously ‘reset’ yourself in order to merely get some more ammo, that’s still available but you’d be giving up all your hard work.

It would add so much more depth to the game and then there’s the psychological element of players building up an emotional attachment to their ‘life’ as they grow. Combat makes so much more sense if you’re playing against people that really, really do not want to die and really, really want to put a bullet between your eyes.

(onYn) #80

[QUOTE=tokamak;516443]
It would add so much more depth to the game and then there’s the psychological element of players building up an emotional attachment to their ‘life’ as they grow. Combat makes so much more sense if you’re playing against people that really, really do not want to die and really, really want to put a bullet between your eyes.[/QUOTE]

I really think that´s a solid concept overall. But I personally prefer the objectives to be the main exciting thing, where you really want to do it quicker then the enemy. Where you fight for every second, because it may end up being the deciding one. I feel like this promotes action much more - what I like.

What I really want to see tho, are “primary” targets. It should be worth to focus a merc with an objective proficiency even if it costs you more lives. That´s the way how I want to see kills having more value, but not in a way that overall will just increase the camping factor in the game.