It really depends a lot on range I feel. The first 2 shots are what I would consider to be accurate at most ranges. After those 2 first shots the accuracy, as in the distance from the exact center from your reticule, has dropped and it depends on your distance really. After 2 shots to get basically guaranteed hits you’re better off using IS. You can gamble shots though and still get kills though fairly well.
Also I am thinking of shots taken not while standing absolutely still or crouching.
I feel like you can hit almost anything in hipfire at most distances I’d expect to land a hit even with an SMG. Technically you should iron sight whenever you can, but it won’t ever happen in open duels. As much as people complain about smart play/positioning not benefiting them, I’d say the opportunity is indeed available- much of that through avoiding a drawn out mid-range duel in the open. The main problem with all SMGs of course is that you do an incredibly small amount of damage with SMGs out of close range and the crouch modifier is perhaps too small. Based on the entire time I’ve played alpha, I’ve come to find that you really have to be spot on to get consistent hits with SMGs- otherwise straying a pixel out of the head box seems to clip their ear hair. SMGs might actually be fairly viable if they weren’t some of the most difficult weapons to use in the game tbh because missing one bullet at mid range means your probably going to die.
I still want to know why SMGs need to have different fall-off damage than rifles considering they aren’t that much better at close range anyway because they are already weak in so many other areas. That’s why I’d rather see the fall-off even across most weapons at close-mid ranges so that we don’t end up with a bunch of situational OP weapons. RoF, recoil, spread, and clip size are all really good ways to balance out diverse weapons. Just because SMGs or shotguns function one way in real life, doesn’t mean emulating that in the game is necessary or even good for the weapon balance. The fall-off feels like something that was added after the fact because it is definitely not doing a lot in the lines of balance. Not to mention that the less bullets it takes to kill, the more consistent and precise aim should be required- which is why you see every sub-par aimer doing exceedingly better with shotguns and auto-kill abilities that involve no real learning curve. I’d much rather have an equally comparable learning curve for each weapon type and have all weapons implore a greater diversity of how they can be effectively used. If a guy with an SMG can land all headshots on me from long range even with their bigger spread and random x-axis recoil, then why shouldn’t they get the kill?
FYI we’re currently working on or planning to do the following related to guns:
[ul]
[li]Updating lots of the weapon sounds[/li][li]Improving hit feedback in a number of ways (different and scaling beeps, scaling impact effects, scaling blood, kill impulse changes, UI tweaks to name a few)[/li][li]Some first person ‘kick’ animations for slower firing higher damage weapons (this is subtle and doesn’t impact weapon behavior)[/li][li]Toggle enabled health bars on hitting enemies[/li][li]We also have a tonne of balance changes we wish to try[/li][/ul]
Many of these will probably take us a good while to get fully working and in, but just wanted to give a heads up we’re still looking at it
[QUOTE=Anti;478906]FYI we’re currently working on or planning to do the following related to guns:
[ul]
[li]Updating lots of the weapon sounds[/li][li]Improving hit feedback in a number of ways (different and scaling beeps, scaling impact effects, scaling blood, kill impulse changes, UI tweaks to name a few)[/li][li]Some first person ‘kick’ animations for slower firing higher damage weapons (this is subtle and doesn’t impact weapon behavior)[/li][li]Toggle enabled health bars on hitting enemies[/li][li]We also have a tonne of balance changes we wish to try[/li][/ul]
Many of these will probably take us a good while to get fully working and in, but just wanted to give a heads up we’re still looking at it[/QUOTE]
sounds nice 
.
but i dont get what you mean with the slower firing weapon.did they replace the actual weapon speed?
Don’t think they are changing the speed, just adjusting the animation to better suit that type of weapon.
Looking forward to the updates on the weapon sounds and hopefully sounds in general. The quality of sound fx in games is so important. The right sound fx can really elevate a game to the next level (once the game-play is sorted) in my opinion.
As much as I like Microsoft Sam… how is the voice acting/casting/recording going for each character?
[QUOTE=biggyyyb;478913]Don’t think they are changing the speed, just adjusting the animation to better suit that type of weapon.
Looking forward to the updates on the weapon sounds and hopefully sounds in general. The quality of sound fx in games is so important. The right sound fx can really elevate a game to the next level (once the game-play is sorted) in my opinion.
As much as I like Microsoft Sam… how is the voice acting/casting/recording going for each character?[/QUOTE]
Yes I meant existing slow firing guns like shotguns, semi-autos, snipers etc.
We actually have commander audio recorded now and audio for most characters. It needs a lot of editing though, as well as some tools and code work to get it in game. It’ll be a fair few weeks yet before its all in and you can play it but it is being worked on.
[QUOTE=Anti;478915]Yes I meant existing slow firing guns like shotguns, semi-autos, snipers etc.
We actually have commander audio recorded now and audio for most characters. It needs a lot of editing though, as well as some tools and code work to get it in game. It’ll be a fair few weeks yet before its all in and you can play it but it is being worked on.[/QUOTE]
the quakmire gunsound would still be nice 
[QUOTE=Anti;478906]FYI we’re currently working on or planning to do the following related to guns:
[ul]
[li]Updating lots of the weapon sounds[/li][li]Improving hit feedback in a number of ways (different and scaling beeps, scaling impact effects, scaling blood, kill impulse changes, UI tweaks to name a few)[/li][li]Some first person ‘kick’ animations for slower firing higher damage weapons (this is subtle and doesn’t impact weapon behavior)[/li][li]Toggle enabled health bars on hitting enemies[/li][li]We also have a tonne of balance changes we wish to try[/li][/ul]
Many of these will probably take us a good while to get fully working and in, but just wanted to give a heads up we’re still looking at it[/QUOTE]
Let’s try it
[QUOTE=Anti;478906]FYI we’re currently working on or planning to do the following related to guns:
[/QUOTE]
I just don’t think certain weapon types are being dealt with in a way that makes them all interesting or attractive to use for the right reasons. The best weapon I can think of that has real definition to it in a very balanced and flexible manner is the sniper rifle. It’s definitely advantageous at a distance, yet it is still very much useable at mid-short ranges- though it becomes increasingly more difficult to survive. The aiming skill required to use it however is completely unchanged.
The shotgun by comparison is only useable at close range, and once you are within range you can output damage with great ease. The extremely limited function makes it unattractive to use, while using it feels incredibly unrewarding. It’s the reason people view it as both useless and overpowered at the same time, just because it’s designed in such a lopsidedly logical way. The stats won’t show it getting substantial kills, but it’s the fact that those who can’t succeed with other weaponry suddenly find themselves more useful with a shotgun without having to do anything differently or improve. It’s the reason why shotguns have a poor rep in FPS games and are either used in pubs or for “trolling”.
SMGs are just a mixed barrel of pros and cons. The pros being that they have a higher RoF, faster movement speed, and larger clips. The cons being higher spread, lower damage, unpredictable recoil, and reduced damage at a range. In full combination it can be pretty hard to avoid a very “random feeling” weapon and then have a difficult time figuring out how to buff it without making it feel low skill spray and pray. Likewise it is just as hard to make it acceptable as “truly skillful” without simply turning it into a rifle. In the end you just aim the best you can and hope it hits the head, which isn’t too reassuring.
I simply want every weapon to feel like it involves an equally demanding learning curve that I need to practice in order to do better, whether that’s having to control recoil, aim better, etc. I just want to actually feel like there’s something I need to put the time practicing into (or even is actually possible) in order to “master” a weapon. The same would go for special abilities too, because as far as this big thing about “mastering your merc” goes, I just don’t feel it yet. So I guess I’m just trying to say “good luck to yeh”. I still consider ETQW’s classes/arsenal to be the best balanced (aside from a select few things) of any game I’ve ever played though.
If SD are truly wanting to add the ‘Dota element’ to it, then shouldn’t the weapons between each char be more varied? Apart from the obvious SG’s and snipers, the other weapons aren’t really that diverse. I still feel we’re at an impasse of indecision or lack of willingness to dedicate to a design path. Step 1 was add the agnostic objectives, great, that means players won’t be basing their class choice purely on the current objective… now we need a high variation in weapon choice, and by that I mean diversity rather than just more to choose from. Avoid the Brink scenario of lots of weapons but not much choice and start emphasising each characters uniqueness, and as inferno mentioned, also give each one it’s own learning curve to master.
[QUOTE=Anti;478906]FYI we’re currently working on or planning to do the following related to guns:
[ul]
[li]Updating lots of the weapon sounds[/li][li]Improving hit feedback in a number of ways (different and scaling beeps, scaling impact effects, scaling blood, kill impulse changes, UI tweaks to name a few)[/li][li]Some first person ‘kick’ animations for slower firing higher damage weapons (this is subtle and doesn’t impact weapon behavior)[/li][li]Toggle enabled health bars on hitting enemies[/li][li]We also have a tonne of balance changes we wish to try[/li][/ul]
Many of these will probably take us a good while to get fully working and in, but just wanted to give a heads up we’re still looking at it[/QUOTE]
I’m excited about these changes!
We are still getting there as you’ll see with upcoming balances changes that we’re going to try.
I always thought this game was going to go the way of a FPS Dota or LOL… Its an interesting concept and could be huge!!! Tanks, adc’s, MID’s and supports all with their special abilities… The only difference I really see is you dont get stronger or anything like that… You pick your person and you are given their abilities into a FPS and Teamwork based game… I am just trying to wrap my head around this because its all about your shot and HS’s but what I dont see yet is a non-hs ability that is based around landing a shot anywhere or with-in the area. Stunning, slowing or healing something that could give low skilled shots the time they need to escape or go up against a person that can 4 or 5 dink them… Activating shield would be cool…
The idea’s are endless and if the weapons even-out (Less Spread + Less Randomness) then the abilities will really shine or buy time against or shorten time for kills.
The more I think about it SD is going to have to be really careful because all the guns take different damage and with the possible introduction of Abilities the balance could go all out of wack.
I would like to have a solider stun grenade someone so they are stuck and silenced for 2 seconds with me a medic runs in and 5 dinks them. However its almost impossible to sprint at a person even standing still and 5 dink them because of the spread!
^spook, I think they are taking one aspect of DOTA not ripping the entire thing lol…
That one thing is character focus instead of classes. Traditional/older rpgs all used classes and dota/moba type games instead use characters which are designed around archetypes like you suggested tanks etc. I hope they don’t take it any further than that… stuns… slows… shields… I hope they don’t do all that kinda stuff personally. There are plenty of options for abilities outside of cliche and extremely overused rpg conventions that honestly have no place in a fast paced fps.
[QUOTE=Protekt1;479258]^spook, I think they are taking one aspect of DOTA not ripping the entire thing lol…
That one thing is character focus instead of classes. Traditional/older rpgs all used classes and dota/moba type games instead use characters which are designed around archetypes like you suggested tanks etc. I hope they don’t take it any further than that… stuns… slows… shields… I hope they don’t do all that kinda stuff personally. There are plenty of options for abilities outside of cliche and extremely overused rpg conventions that honestly have no place in a fast paced fps.[/QUOTE]
I like the idea of countering abilities and keeping the gun play separate. If mercs are indeed defined by their special abilities and will be more so as development progresses, then having some dynamic cross-class counter ability play would make for some interesting game play. Plus opportunities to combine/combo merc abilities in some fashion to serve a greater purpose, etc would be great.