Get the Balance Right

[tokamak]

Second, that is why there’s importance multipliers… Yes, Rhino will have a super low acc but are you going to be playing rhino all the time?

Suppose someone would like to do so, then what? But let me tun that on it’s head:

There’s going to be one or two mercs that will fit in a particular set of weights just right. You’re going to be seeing situations where only that particular merc is going to end up standing a chance at the top of the ladder. Playing that particular merc full time won’t only be an advantage but a necessity for a players that want to go for the top ranks.

And the worse thing is that there may even be other specific mercs that may contribute more to their teams but just because the weight set is skewed they’ll be unrecognised.

My point is, any modifiers you add on top of xp/min is going to be arbitrary. The sub categories for xp are already arbitrary and can only approximate accuracy through lots of trial and error.

[spookify]

[QUOTE=tokamak;511878]Suppose someone would like to do so, then what? But let me tun that on it’s head:

There’s going to be one or two mercs that will fit in a particular set of weights just right. You’re going to be seeing situations where only that particular merc is going to end up standing a chance at the top of the ladder. Playing that particular merc full time won’t only be an advantage but a necessity for a players that want to go for the top ranks.

And the worse thing is that there may even be other specific mercs that may contribute more to their teams but just because the weight set is skewed they’ll be unrecognised.[/QUOTE]

Do the math…

Person only plays Rhine… Fine… I see a flaw in your thinking already because first of all you dont unlock Rhino until level what 18? or something… By that time you will already have 500 minutes or 8 hours of play time… Fine Fine a person unlock Rhino at Level 18 and say leveling up this person BLOWS and cant aim then just plays Rhino FOREVER!!! He hits level 20 and can play Ranked — Boom Gets his Bronze 1 Rank Below! -->

Player Name Tokamk Rhino Noob
Bronze 1 Rank
1 * ((0.5 * 10 *5%) + ((((20% + 5%) / 2) * 100) * 10%)) + ((200 / 10) * 30%) + (((25% * 100) * 1.5) * 55%)))
Rank * (K/D) + (Acc and HS Acc) + (SPM) + (W/L)

(5.25 + 13.75 + 26 + 58.125) * 1 = 103.13 Below Average Bronze 1 Player…
Low KD — Low ACC — Low SPM — Low W/L

(15.75 + 41.25 + 72.8 + 120.9) * 1 = 250.7 Player Rank (Average Player Example from Previous Post)

[spookify]

[QUOTE=spookify;511879]Do the math…

Person only plays Rhine… Fine… I see a flaw in your thinking already because first of all you dont unlock Rhino until level what 18? or something… By that time you will already have 500 minutes or 8 hours of play time… Fine Fine a person unlock Rhino at Level 18 and say leveling up this person BLOWS and cant aim then just plays Rhino FOREVER!!! He hits level 20 and can play Ranked — Boom Gets his Bronze 1 Rank Below! -->

Player Name Tokamk Rhino Noob
Bronze 1 Rank
1 * ((0.5 * 10 *5%) + ((((20% + 5%) / 2) * 100) * 10%)) + ((200 / 10) * 30%) + (((25% * 100) * 1.5) * 55%)))
Rank * (K/D) + (Acc and HS Acc) + (SPM) + (W/L)

(5.25 + 13.75 + 26 + 58.125) * 1 = 103.13 Below Average Bronze 1 Player…
Low KD — Low ACC — Low SPM — Low W/L

(15.75 + 41.25 + 72.8 + 120.9) * 1 = 250.7 Player Rank (Average Player Example from Previous Post)[/QUOTE]

Lets Do Even More MATH!!!

Val Sniper HIGH acc and High HS good player!! Good Sniper Good Win Loss Very High KD SPM is average…

Bronze 1 Rank
1 * ((4 * 10 *5%) + ((((56% + 45%) / 2) * 100) * 10%)) + ((400 / 10) * 30%) + (((60% * 100) * 1.5) * 55%)))
Rank * (K/D) + (Acc and HS Acc) + (SPM) + (W/L)

(42 + 55.55 + 52 + 139.5) * 1 = 289.05 Good Val Sniper

But again this would be a person that is 90% of the time playing Val to keep his over all stats up…As you can see he isnt far off of an average player…

[tokamak]

Here’s the question:

Why is xp/min not enough? What is there about xp/min that needs extra modification before it becomes an accurate stat? Doesn’t it already include every quantifiable thing a player can do in a game?

See the only thing I can think of why players want to attach modifiers to something that is already supposed to be completely comprehensive is that it doesn’t favour their particular favourite style as much as they’d like. Somewhere you want extra brownie points for an outdated score that has been caught up with.

Please prove me wrong here. Maybe there’s a better reason.

[Humate]

Production doesnt equate to skill.
eg Kobe vs LeBron

As an indicator of production that score is fine…

[spookify]

[QUOTE=tokamak;511878]Suppose someone would like to do so, then what? But let me tun that on it’s head:

There’s going to be one or two mercs that will fit in a particular set of weights just right. You’re going to be seeing situations where only that particular merc is going to end up standing a chance at the top of the ladder. Playing that particular merc full time won’t only be an advantage but a necessity for a players that want to go for the top ranks.

And the worse thing is that there may even be other specific mercs that may contribute more to their teams but just because the weight set is skewed they’ll be unrecognised.

My point is, any modifiers you add on top of xp/min is going to be arbitrary. The sub categories for xp are already arbitrary and can only approximate accuracy through lots of trial and error.[/QUOTE]

I answer with SPM and W/L are probably the two most important stats “WE” currently have our hands on… SD might have a fancy echo stat or something but SPM and W/L are the most important in “Ranked” Games…

SPM = Are you gaining XP during the match to help your team win?
W/L = Did you Win?

This should make up over 50% of your total score or ranking…

ACC and KD are little bonus stats that will determine all around good players.

Again all the numbers are averaged in the first place between every merc so its base line skill.

[tokamak]

Could that be the disagreement here? Results vs Skill? Some players want to have their definition of skills measured while others only care about the results?

Because I’ll be the first admit that I sincerely only care about the results. I don’t mind what’s required to happen before the results are met, as long as they’re met.

Amazing, it’s the old Confucius vs Lao Tze standoff.

[QUOTE=spookify;511883]I answer with SPM and W/L are probably the two most important stats “WE” currently have our hands on… SD might have a fancy echo stat or something but SPM and W/L are the most important in “Ranked” Games…

SPM = Are you gaining XP during the match to help your team win?
W/L = Did you Win?

This should make up over 50% of your total score or ranking…

ACC and KD are little bonus stats that will determine all around good players.

Again all the numbers are averaged in the first place between every merc so its base line skill.[/QUOTE]

I’m all for combining W/L with SPM but that alone is already suggesting that the rewards for winning (or penalties for losing) aren’t representative. The amount of wins and losses should already be included in a players SPM.

And yeah, I just don’t see why Acc. and KD need to be included at all. I can think off a few examples where aiming for those scores is counterproductive in a match.

[spookify]

[QUOTE=tokamak;511881]Here’s the question:

Why is xp/min not enough? What is there about xp/min that needs extra modification before it becomes an accurate stat? Doesn’t it already include every quantifiable thing a player can do in a game?

See the only thing I can think of why players want to attach modifiers to something that is already supposed to be completely comprehensive is that it doesn’t favour their particular favourite style as much as they’d like. Somewhere you want extra brownie points for an outdated score that has been caught up with.

Please prove me wrong here. Maybe there’s a better reason.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Humate;511882]Production doesnt equate to skill.
eg Kobe vs LeBron[/QUOTE]

Exactly

Anyone can get XP…

I hate when I go into games and I am new level 2 however I am flat out owning a level 50 that has 200 hours more play time then me…

Haxer… Level 2 Hacker!!!

What!! You have 3 Million XP and a SPM of 500

I have 100 XP and a SPM of 2000!

Yes I am new and that SPM will average our after I play…

http://bf3stats.com/stats_pc/spookify4

This is exactly what happened in BF3 when I started to play…

Eventually my SPM went down to:
Score/minute = 1 098 .10

Which was still very high for BF3…

XP really doesnt prove anything other then you play alot…

[spookify]

[QUOTE=tokamak;511884]Could that be the disagreement here? Results vs Skill? Some players want to have their definition of skills measured while others only care about the results?

Because I’ll be the first admit that I sincerely only care about the results. I don’t mind what’s required to happen before the results are met, as long as they’re met.

Amazing, it’s the old Confucius vs Lao Tze standoff.

I’m all for combining W/L with SPM but that alone is already suggesting that the rewards for winning (or penalties for losing) aren’t representative. The amount of wins and losses should already be included in a players SPM.

And yeah, I just don’t see why Acc. and KD need to be included at all. I can think off a few examples where aiming for those scores is counterproductive in a match.[/QUOTE]

SPM and W/L should be in there because you can be an awesome player and in a match get 10K XP but loss! Why?

Number 1 = you deserve to loss because you are rambo’ing…
Number 2 = You got put with a bunch of crap players
Number 3 = You really freaking tried but the team was just to good…

So you are saying you should get rewarded for #3?
Eventually if you are good the wins will come and even out…

[tokamak]

[QUOTE=spookify;511885]Exactly

Anyone can get XP…

I hate when I go into games and I am new level 2 however I am flat out owning a level 50 that has 200 hours more play time then me…

Haxer… Level 2 Hacker!!!

What!! You have 3 Million XP and a SPM of 500

I have 100 XP and a SPM of 2000!

Yes I am new and that SPM will average our after I play…

http://bf3stats.com/stats_pc/spookify4

This is exactly what happened in BF3 when I started to play…

Eventually my SPM went down to:
Score/minute = 1 098 .10

Which was still very high for BF3…

XP really doesnt prove anything other then you play alot…[/QUOTE]

How can SPM only prove you’ve played a lot when you correct it for time?

[spookify]

Note: BF3 and possible BF4 also have “Skill” Stats:

This is what determines your skill level on your stats page:

• You gain/loose SL based on every confrontation with another player
• Killing a highly skilled enemy gives you more points than killing someone less skilled
• Points are not transferred from a player to another, they are simply added/subtracted based on the encounter and the SL of both parts (thus, after an encounter, one part may go up 50 points while the other loses only 20)
• The SL is used for matchmaking

[spookify]

How can SPM only prove you’ve played a lot when you correct it for time?

10K XP in a 10 Minute SW or OBJ Match = 1,000 SPM

Note sure if ribbons and all that stuff are figured in yet…

[tokamak]

Why would you multiple it by time? We’re talking about dividing it by time here.

xp PER minute
xp/min

And get all the badges on board, it’s fine

score per minute
s/min
SPM

[QUOTE=spookify;511886]So you are saying you should get rewarded for #3?
Eventually if you are good the wins will come and even out…[/QUOTE]

Yeah that’s a big problem with W/L rating in such large teams. Even in 1v1 it’s not enough and ELO has to be used. This only becomes a bigger problem in bigger matches.

WoW solves this through arena teams. At least that gives some form of consistency to rankings.

[montheponies]

[QUOTE=Anti;511873]We already shuffle teams between matches based on what we call a ‘Public Skill Rating’, an aggregate rating of XPM across multiple matches. We use this system very much for the reasons tokamak mentioned.

It’s by no means ideal though, we have a number of things we still need to do. One issue is that we have to shuffle in the lobby at the lobby’s start so that players can pick their Mercs based on their side. This causes an issue where people decide to leave/join the session after the shuffle, messing the balance up - ideally we’d shuffle on match start but this would impact Merc choice a lot.

As others pointed out we also don’t normalize XPM by team, which might be a good idea. Right now we kind of let the aggregate rating across last 10 matches address the variance.

I think the biggest issue is that we still don’t have a shuffle/vote shuffle mid match and with the current small beta population this means there isnt a ready supply of players to come in and fill the gaps.

All of this is known however and on our list of things to improve, but any other suggestions you folks have would be good.[/QUOTE]

Is this just on the Objective servers? Just I really don’t notice the shuffle on SW bringing anything in the way of balance. Also I’d say your putting far too much weight on the idea that merc selection takes place based upon other team members choices. Personally I’d go with shuffling at the start of the round not in the lobby as the lesser of two evils.

[spookify]

[QUOTE=tokamak;511890]Why would you multiple it by time? We’re talking about dividing it by time here.

xp PER minute
xp/min

And get all the badges on board, it’s fine

score per minute
s/min
SPM

Yeah that’s a big problem with W/L rating in such large teams. Even in 1v1 it’s not enough and ELO has to be used. This only becomes a bigger problem in bigger matches.

WoW solves this through arena teams. At least that gives some form of consistency to rankings.[/QUOTE]

I did divide? That is how:
SPM
xp PER minute
xp/min

is figured out…

10,000 xp / 10 minutes = 1,000 XP Per Minute or SPM

We arent going to have large games… SW will only be 5 v 5 or 6 v 6 ranked…

I am also assuming that if people want to break away from the game like people did in ET and go play shrub, jay or bani mode they could go do that in a sense that they will play on Large OJB custom maps that will “not” be ranked…

However that person will still have a Bronze 1 rank OR know rank at all of they never join the ranked leagues…

XP per Minute and W/L are flat out the most important… If you dont get XP you arent doing anything… IE not helping the team… Reviving, engineering, killing all get XP…

The more badgers you get and the better you did will raise your SPM and you will get a higher rank… If you win, o boy look out then your rank or skill will go up even more…

To my above post about BF3 and their “skill” Score I very paid attention to that AND I really didnt care about W/L… All I cared about was fragging in BF3…

HOWEVER, a ranked LOL FPS game like DB is going to be heck yeah lets WIN!

[spookify]

[QUOTE=Anti;511873]We already shuffle teams between matches based on what we call a ‘Public Skill Rating’, an aggregate rating of XPM across multiple matches. We use this system very much for the reasons tokamak mentioned.

It’s by no means ideal though, we have a number of things we still need to do. One issue is that we have to shuffle in the lobby at the lobby’s start so that players can pick their Mercs based on their side. This causes an issue where people decide to leave/join the session after the shuffle, messing the balance up - ideally we’d shuffle on match start but this would impact Merc choice a lot.

As others pointed out we also don’t normalize XPM by team, which might be a good idea. Right now we kind of let the aggregate rating across last 10 matches address the variance.

I think the biggest issue is that we still don’t have a shuffle/vote shuffle mid match and with the current small beta population this means there isnt a ready supply of players to come in and fill the gaps.

All of this is known however and on our list of things to improve, but any other suggestions you folks have would be good.[/QUOTE]

Something must happen because Inferno and I are never and I mean never on the same team… Sucks!!!

[tokamak]

[QUOTE=spookify;511895]I did divide? That is how:
SPM
xp PER minute
xp/min

is figured out…

10,000 xp / 10 minutes = 1,000 XP Per Minute or SPM[/QUOTE]

Right I’m used to the comma being different. I should’ve figured that out.

Still, what’s wrong with this? How does this show how much someone has played?

[spookify]

[QUOTE=tokamak;511897]Right I’m used to the comma being different. I should’ve figured that out.

Still, what’s wrong with this? How does this show how much someone has played?[/QUOTE]

Good point sir - thee good old I have played this game 2 years stat.

That number/rank or Symbol will and should be like any other game and just like what we are currently seeing in DB.

This stat will have no bearing on the “skill” calculation because, well… It really has nothing to do with skill but rather play time…

Right now in DB we have a straight line XP leveling up system like every-other game… I am level 21 currently with something like 1.6 million XP…

We would keep this system I assume… I would also like SD not to cap this! You play for 5 years your level should be 300 or something… more math but I am not figuring out the Leveling XP stuff and as we can see SD already has a formula in the game… Super slow once you get past Level 16 right?

So in conclusion finally haha DB will or should have 3 different things: Skill, rank, or Level

Skill = Based off Calculating all the stuff we just talked about (Is Only In Ranked Play) (Over All World Ranking and Stuff Like that)
- Side Note I just thought of Something… Total Wins If you are the best of the best in the world what will set you apart…
1 - Already Diamond 3… Highest RanK
2 - Everything else is very high…
What will make the #1 Player better then number 2 in ranked play?
Win Right?
Question:
Do you reset the win’s after each season?
OR
Just let him go (However if he is inactive he falls off the leader-board until he plays again in that season…) (Like in Clash of Clans)

Rank = Bronze 1 - Diamond 3

Level = Playing according to total XP

[tokamak]

I’m honestly wondering who of us is confused here.

xp/min doesn’t say anything about the time played any more than km/h says something about the mileage of a car.

SD could even add a decay where older xp/min weighs less than new xp/min to avoid the statistic from stabilising towards some average if sluggish big data becomes a problem.

[INF3RN0]

As additional multipliers to W/L… KPM/DPM > KDR/ACC. XPM is reasonable as well, because you do get a lot of XP for killing people around the objective and supporting your team.