Do you like the current med pack mechanic or want changes?

(tokamak) #61

I’m not sure I follow here. In Inferno’s example the team-mates are sure to receive packs because that’s the only thing the medic can do with it.

(KillinFreak) #62

Unless SD wants DB to have rambo medics and turn it into a free for all. I dont like the regen health for the classes. Maybe a small regen rate for medic and not allow him to be able to pick up packs for say at least 5 secs or something. Allow med packs to say heal 25% for each pack to other classes. That drops a medic back to a support role instead of a combat role.

If not you have things like this when offense cant push anymore and everyone starts going medic…

OBJ_Camden-PC-24-12.47.040.jpg900×563 115 KB

(tokamak) #63

Yeah exactly. The whole ‘We’re losing so let’s go medic’ should just not be a thing.

(Raviolay) #64

I think Medics should not be able to heal off their own med packs (maybe put a outline on them to denote they are your med packs), and receive healing at a lower rate off other players med packs from your team. Also dependent on how may medics are on your team, the healing percentage you receive as a medic from med packs goes down the more medics are on your team.

However I think they should have higher health regeneration, and a % chance of self defib after 2 seconds. That is dependent on how many other players on your team, are within a certain range of your body. The increases in chance of a self defib if you are near you team, coincides with playing in your role, and practically nulls it if your playing John Rambo. Albeit like with med packs the % increase of defib chance you receive is lower from other medics, this combined with the lower healing rate from packs should push players to spread out into other classes. Rather that the medic being the De Facto assault class.

(tokamak) #65

Excellent, now you´re starting to think in Quake Wars!

(Raviolay) #66

Never played it passed the demo, was going to pick it up however it’s de-listed on Steam now. That and there probably isn’t that many playing it today in any case.

(Kendle) #67

[QUOTE=Raviolay;437035]I think Medics should not be able to heal off their own med packs (maybe put a outline on them to denote they are your med packs), and receive healing at a lower rate off other players med packs from your team. Also dependent on how may medics are on your team, the healing percentage you receive as a medic from med packs goes down the more medics are on your team.

However I think they should have higher health regeneration, and a % chance of self defib after 2 seconds. That is dependent on how many other players on your team, are within a certain range of your body. The increases in chance of a self defib if you are near you team, coincides with playing in your role, and practically nulls it if your playing John Rambo. Albeit like with med packs the % increase of defib chance you receive is lower from other medics, this combined with the lower healing rate from packs should push players to spread out into other classes. Rather that the medic being the De Facto assault class.[/QUOTE]

Trying to think of a post of these forums I disagree with more, but having a bit of difficulty. You might just have surpassed tokamak with that one, and that’s saying something. :slight_smile:

Self-defib? No way I would ever, ever, ever want to see that happen. Dependent on how many other players on your team, within a certain range? Way too variable and inconsistent.

Medic is no longer the de-facto assault class (maybe you missed the last couple of patches?), so this looks like a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist, and a really, really, really over-complicated and terrible one at that.

(INF3RN0) #68

Self healing is the source of ramboing, not helping the team, etc. I would be fine with this mechanic, however it must come at a cost. Removing it completely makes the most sense to me if you grant the medic equal killing ability as every other class. This loadout would enable the medic to get multi-kills on the same level as any other class and wouldn’t need any limitations applied because its abilities never do anything unhelpful to the team. This type of medic is completely equal to any other class in a 1v1, which only seems fair. A variation of the medic now having self heal similar to how it works now is fine too. I just don’t see self heal and equal killing capability with the weapon being achievable without making the medic statistically better than every other class. At this point we need to step back and look at the bigger picture as to whether or not this was actually a good design decision, or if it just worked because we got used to it being like that.

(warbie) #69

Just out of interest, why shouldn’t the medic be the most deadly class in the game? Not saying that’s the way it should be btw, just curious what people think. ET was pretty much the medic show and it’s the most popular thing by some margin SD have done.

(INF3RN0) #70

In my opinion it only became a popular play style because it was the most effective way to play. If another class had been in the same situation everyone would have played it instead. I know one of the main reasons why I played medic was because I could sustain myself for longer and have a bigger impact on the game because of it, though the idea was to be more self sufficient in fragging to avoid relying on teamwork. Really that’s what people want out of self heal- being able to kill more people without the consequences that come from taking damage. I’d much rather even the playing field among the classes by removing it completely. Then I would be playing the class for my team, and I still would have just as much fragging ability as anything else.

(Nail) #71

I think xp save had a part in the making of rambo medics for pubs, in comp, it was what worked
with etpro on our server we had too many coverts tk’n each other for “their” spot

(tokamak) #72

Then we would have one class with two strengths and one class with none. Picking the medic would be a no-brainer. There would be no reason to have the entire team be medic, have one engineer and perhaps, for flavour a field ops.

(warbie) #73

In DB’s current state. That wasn’t the case in RTCW, though, in which you’d find a good mix of classes on pubs and in scrims. Maybe we should be looking at why this worked and why it hasn’t in games since. However you look at it, RTCW is the daddy of ET, ET:QW, Brink and now DB, and up to this point the further each game has moved away from that original template the more class balance and teamplay has suffered. The medic has always been the strongest class (when he had ammo), but it wasn’t until ET that that this became a problem and the rambo medic came into his own. I think what I’m trying to say is - rather than messing with health packs and health regen (and giving medics a percentage chance of self reviving when certain planets have aligned and on the second Wednesday of each month :wink: ), why not go back what worked best and then start tweaking. Wouldn’t the RTCW medic with a slightly lesser gun be what everyone wants?

(INF3RN0) #74

Why can’t we have both? I’d gladly sacrifice self heal for better weaponry. After all I can’t self heal on any other class. The way I would like to play medic is to have equal killing potential as everyone else, but also be able to support my team when it was required. I wouldn’t always need to heal or revive, so when I was actually in combat I wouldn’t need to worry about feeling weak. Two means of playing that I find acceptable, however they shouldn’t be combined. Again this is an example of how we can have different functional models of a single class that adhere to different play styles, which I think is partly what DB is trying to achieve.

(tokamak) #75

Yeah same here. I -really- don’t mind letting the medic be a powerful as the other classes (except for the assault). If he can’t cannibalise his class role for combat power then sure thing, let him have combat power.

Mind you, the very reason why SD is hesitant with his combat power right now is because self-heal is still a thing. Once you take away self-heal then suddenly the offensive power of the medic really isn’t much of an issue any longer.

That’s the beauty of removing the lid on class abilities. Once they’re no longer usable for egoic reasons they also aren’t any longer an argument to nerf the combat power of that class.

Except for self-heal there really isn’t any other reason to let a medic have less ammo and a weaker gun. So take it away and let him have his ammo back and let him become a full contributing member to the team.

Self-heal is masturbation, fighting and healing the others while depending on them, that’s the real sex.

(Kendle) #76

The other thing a Medic needs to rambo, besides self-heal, is ammo. Can’t kill **** without bullets in your gun. The reason the RTCW Medic didn’t rambo is because he had bugger all ammo. His gun was as good as anyone else’s when it had bullets in it, but it was the fact he needed a friendly Lt. to feed him ammo that stopped him rambo’ing.

In ET, with ammo racks and the ability to pick up guns dropped by dead enemies, the Medic no longer needed a F/Ops, and the rambo Medic was born.

Taking away self-heal is not really addressing the problem, it’s a solution that counters one problem by adding another, the fact a non-self-healing Medic becomes the only member of the team (if there’s only one Medic on the team) that can’t be healed. No other class requires another of its kind to be fully functional.

(INF3RN0) #77

[QUOTE=Kendle;437120]
Taking away self-heal is not really addressing the problem, it’s a solution that counters one problem by adding another, the fact a non-self-healing Medic becomes the only member of the team (if there’s only one Medic on the team) that can’t be healed. No other class requires another of its kind to be fully functional.[/QUOTE]

So forcing medic to play with a FOPS is the answer? Removing self heal and equalizing everything else doesn’t cause any problems at all. The medic isn’t weakened or doesn’t perform its role in a lesser way, in fact it performs its role much more consistently. I’m really failing to understand why you think self heal is essential to the class or that removing it is causing a problem. Saying a medic requires another medic to survive is really a confusing argument, as any non-medic class would require a medic to function under that thinking. Just because RTCW did it doesn’t mean it was a good idea, however yes it became much worse in the other titles; this just seems like “fandom” is blocking out the logic. I still find it wholly unconvincing that this feature is good for the game or makes much sense being there to begin with. Medic can still be healed though, just via another medic- so I don’t see why your saying it can’t be healed?

(Kendle) #78

Take this scenario :-

5 players on a team, 1 of each class, each has 2 abilities, all of which are designed to help the team in some way. The F/Ops can give ammo to team-mates (or himself), and blow up the EV. The Soldier can plant C4 and throw conc 'nades, the Engie can disarm and lay mines, etc. The Medic can heal team-mates (or himself) and revive. All these things a player can do to benefit the team (and themselves), either by advancing their cause or directly helping a specific team member (including themselves).

Take away self-heal and now every member of the team can still perform the same 2 functions, either to advance the team or to help a specific team member (including themselves), all except the Medic, who can now only help his team, not himself.

See the difference?

Take away self-heal and you must take away the ability of the F/Ops to give himself ammo (after all, no other class can give itself ammo), forcing a 2nd F/Ops so they can supply each other.

Do that and you’re adding problems and complexity that doesn’t need to exist and doesn’t address the original problem it was supposed to solve.

edit: And if the reply is F/Ops giving themselves ammo isn’t a problem, then Medics giving themselves Med packs isn’t a problem. It’s a balance issue that is more correctly resolved some other way.

(tokamak) #79

Oh the field ops shouldn’t be able to have his own ammo as well. Agreed!

Can be offset with giving him a greater supply of ammo or even grenades with his packs. Another example of how self-serving skills limit the way it can be of use to others.

Both classes can still receive ammo and packs from other fops and meds. We just HAVE to start recognising that both dudes are support classes and they really need to start acting like that.

Then you can also make the connection between the field ops and forward spawns/supply crates more prominent. If the field ops is the only class that can ‘enable’ them to the team then it makes sense to make him the only class that needs to rely on these things to keep his ammo up.

Self-heal is an ability that provides enormous combat power to the medic. As long as it exists the developers need to keep tip-toeing around it and try all kinds of other counter-balances that happen to be very frustrating, the low ammo, the weak gun and the slower heals are all things I see as detrimental to the gameplay.

Once you remove it you suddenly give yourself more space to reconsider the medic and it’s role in the team. You can think about making him the only regenerative class, you can find other means in which he can heal (like through healing others). You can increase the supply of medpacks, you can make his weapon stronger, give him more ammo you can just load buffs on him simply because self-heal is that powerful right now.

Btw I’m really glad this discussion is finally coming along.

(Kendle) #80

I was being facetious, if neither Meds nor F/Ops could give themselves packs you’d need 7-v-7 before all classes and all abilities could be realised, compared to 5-v-5 currently.

That would be acceptable, everyone else being able to regenerate negates the need for a Medic as it is, take away regen for everyone else and the Medic becomes a valuable support class. However it’s pretty close to that already, Med packs already don’t heal instantly and stop healing if damage is taken.

If Medic became the only class that could regenerate then I’d want 2 other things to be in place:-

  1. The old style instant healing to a fixed HP Med packs (currently everyone is being punished to stop rambo Medic’ing).
  2. Regen must be less than the amount of damage a bullet can do within TTK, i.e. if TTK is 1 second and a bullet does 20 hp damage (for example), regen must be less than 20 HP per second.