DIRTY BOMB UPDATE: Version 21216

(BomBaKlaK) #241

[QUOTE=iwound;456431]classes dont have a fall off. weapons do. unless i missed a memo.:rolleyes: can i throw a medic at the enemy?
equal fall off across the board would be boring.
a shorter range for medic encourages him/her to stick to groups. where they need to be. and it IS working.
“here have some medikit, now keep me safe.”[/QUOTE]

yes your right weapon got fall-off but can be fun to throw a medic :stuck_out_tongue:
I understand you point of view but I still think the fall-off is a bit to much, and i’m not agree when you said it works.
everyone play fops … cause of this

(DB Genome editor) #242

That would be an interesting long-distance revive mechanism :smiley:

(Kendle) #243

Yes, but we’ve had this discussion too many times now. We’ve had very long and detailed threads locked as a result of getting side-tracked with this issue. I’d rather not see another one go the same way.

Only as a concession to those who genuinely believe it should be. Personally I do think the TTK is fine right now, and don’t want to change it, but IF the vocal minority somehow manage to convince SD it should be changed THEN I’d want higher HS damage / multiplier to offset the increased BS TTK, that’s all I meant. :slight_smile:

(iwound) #244

i wouldn’t personally make concessions to other forumites blindly. but sd is another matter. better to stick to what you believe and give good reasons. if there’s a point of contention then i would say i could live with it but not think it is best. actually state its a concession of sorts. or just say no, no , no.

as you say ttk feels ok atm. but its a new update and all things can be looked at especially if changes have been made. stated or not. i find a lot of the comments interesting because people get upset, inc myself when things change and they highlight this were as i might not of noticed it. ie medic weapon range falloff.

i don’t think any of us are in a position to negotiate any changes regarding any particular feature between us.
its sd’s decision so probably best to address the organ grinder and not the monkeys. :wink:

i respect your approach but mine is more, no your wrong because x,y,z or ok i except that point.

(BomBaKlaK) #245

sry double post

(BomBaKlaK) #246

yes but if your x, y, and z are not valid argument then you’re like us, you just give your feelings about some stuff you like and dislike . This argument for example is not valid to me :

a shorter range for medic encourages him/her to stick to groups. where they need to be. and it IS working.
“here have some medikit, now keep me safe.”

that’s NOT working to me. everyone play fops or soldier cause of the medic fall-off, and this fall-off is not justified as it can be for some other obvious things. I prefer the mister funky’s approach as a valid argument :

[QUOTE=MrFunkyFunk;456247]I don’t understand the hate for long distance shooting. The maps are already so cramped there aren’t many areas where people are able to do it, it doesn’t require a degree in movement to be able to almost completely avoid those areas. There are already plenty areas that encourage “melee” fights.
I can’t stand the fall-off and spread we currently have, in addition to the maps, I feel like the goal is to enforce close encounters.

Players like weapons they can use in all situations, now most of the players fall back to the fops which has the two loadouts with weapons that are reliable in almost every encounter.
Honestly, who here doesn’t like the feeling of the fops weapons? Those are amongst the less worse we currently have at our disposition.

I still believe, possibly wrongly, that a lower rof & lower body damages would mitigate the mixed feelings over long-distance shooting.
Allow only precisely aimed shots to deal great damages at a distance (in addition to a tighter spread on most weapons).

Let’s not penalize the dedicated aimers.
Let’s give the new comers something to look for: a learning/mastering curve.
In the past, players thrived to get better by learning the aspects of a game, now everything has to be handled to them on a silver plate to avoid frustration.
It probably sounds elitist and it might be, sorry. [/QUOTE]

(MrFunkyFunk) #247

My post was in no way a “RTCW/ET/QW did it better”. From that lot I only played QW competitively and for a short time back in 2007.
Moving to DB was from a wish to get away from what was being done everywhere by every game company. In some aspects it does but still sticking to safe choices instead of innovation or mold breaking. It’s still a good little game, we’re still in alpha, but the magic I felt when I joined end of january isn’t there anymore.
Sure there might be some nostalgia and some people who can’t accept change that will always criticize and not move forward.
This is a new game but the issue for me now is: who will be left to play the game if it alienates even some parts of SD fans around these boards? At this cost are we sure the game will be played by the new targeted public long enough to be a “successful operation”?

I don’t expect to see all I, or mostly others, said ever make it into the game, I already accepted there wouldn’t be any real movements mechanic so it’s left to the combat system (for the fighting part, I won’t talk again of the maps/objectives). And in that area I find it really boring past a few matches, I didn’t see any wrong talking about TTK in this very thread since it is related to some changes introduced with this patch like iwound said.

Saying that part of the game is perfect is like putting blinders and not see the many disheartened players who don’t come to the forums or start the game anymore. Sure in that lot there some people living in the past, some who still don’t get the alpha concept but there are also some who really wish to see the game succeed.

It’s been 3 weeks so I’m sure we can expect an update soo and let this thread die of its old age.

(GENETX) #248

[QUOTE=ailmanki;456388]I have more the feeling that sometimes the game does lag, well I don’t see the lag. But if I die in an instant, I mean health was 100% - next moment I am dead, I suppose its cause of lag and not ttk.
Somekind of lagometer would be good.[/QUOTE]
^^ This. I have exactlythis problem like 25% of the time… With 40ms ping…

(acQu) #249

Does anyone even know how the netcode in this game actually works? Was it explained somewhere? I have my serious issues with this netcode. It confuses me. Here a typical situation: i shoot at someone and go out of bullets. The reload animation starts and half way through the animation the other guy who i shot at before goes down? Half a second later? O-o

It is hard for me to order my thoughts: basically i think people with higher FPS have netcode advantage. I don’t know how i come to that assumption, but there is a copule of guys i know (usually the better ones with 60-70% K/D) who shouldn’t be that good. I think it is their FPS giving them an unfair advantage, apart from the fact that more FPS runs more fluid. There is something with the netcode and FPS i feel giving them that advantage. Like some shots from me will not be taken into calculation e.g. 50 FPS vs 100 FPS, only half of my shots are taken into consideration into hit calculation.

Also another unordered thought: does the netcode use a queuing in which shots which are clear hits are getting stalled until the shots of the victim are evaluated? Let’s say i have 50 ping and my opponent 100 ping. I shoot and hit. At the global same time he shoots and hits. My shot arrives 50 ms earlier. Will it wait in the queue for the other shot to arrive? Of course this is a draw in this calculation, so i am not asking who wins now, i am asking if this is the stuff which confuses me that much. If this is true i would strongly recommend not using that system, because it creates an inconsistent shooting feeling. Do you know what i mean? It is just not right imo. But i first would need confirmation about my assumptions. Why can’t you guys just use netcode similar to idtech3. Unreal Engine i know, but meh. Shouldn’t stuff like that be thought out before? I really don’T know anything, is it Unreal, is it the gamecode … meh …

Anyway. one last thing from me: i have better performance. I almost run stutterfree through the streets. Don’t know if it was the patch or the fact that i reinstalled my system. But runs fairly fluid now with 30 to 40 FPS on most maps. Almost no reds.

(pulley) #250

acQu for me it feels like the hit reg is calculated client sided and not server sided. I dont know if it really is like that but thats how it feels…

Also the movement of the opponents is far to smooth. If im playing cs:s with highping its much harder to aim because of lagging opponents and thats how it should be…

(acQu) #251

Yup. I heard that is true. So as i understand it regs, but then it is send to the server. At the server i think it lands in a queue, some kind of priority queue sorted by ping. This would also explain why high pingers can play fairly well, simply because when i shoot them, my shots land in the queue of the server and get evaluated later. This in turn creates a fairly strange hit reg feeling which is not consistent. If this is true, everyone i shoot will give me different delay from time my hit gets registered until the server actually confirms the hit. I feel this is creating an uncomfortable feeling, as you always wonder when you go down and the other one has still 100% health, although you hit him. It is a bit of strange and also sometimes feels like shots are simply missing in the calculation. I know UDP can loose some packets. And i also use fast-path from my internet provider to get better ping. Maybe all of this together creates that weird and undeterministic netcode feeling for me. Or it is the weapon spread. Or my crosshair not pointing in the right direction. Or other players hitboxes are totally elsewhere i aim, etc etc … just, my tip goes to netcode.

(ailmanki) #252

I played a short time with the hitsounds enabled, and quickly disabled them again - lol. It didn’t seem consistent. But could be that I am not experienced enough yet - not sure either seriously.
It felt similar as to playing ET with 150 ping. Its like the confirmation for the hit comes to late. Once I disabled them, it felt like what I see is what I get. Besides that I sometimes got killed in an instant - and not by snipers. But it makes sense to me, I suppose as pulley says the hit reg is done clientside. As such depending on internet connection and stuff, and probably higher fps. Your enemies bullets might always reach a bit earlier then yours - from timestamp view. But I have no idea how it samples that data. I guess it has some tickrate, and probably it should be easy for SD to increase that once the server alpha stuff is better – well just assumptions - but makes sense to myself :smiley:

I think the biggest impact for all this the input delay. As long as that is in green range, its very smooth it seems to me - without hitounds.
Maybe we should try some experiments, like while shooting an enemy, blocking inet - and see if he dies - while not receiving anything from server.

(INF3RN0) #253

On the subject of netcode… here’s my experience having now played USA servers more. I consider high ping ‘playable’, but not at all advantageous. There is visible reaction time delays as in I will peek and be dead instantly or duck and be dead instantly. Many times I’ll receive hit beeps, but the server considers me dead already. On the US servers I find my actions much more responsive with less overkill and more instant server feedback. Sniping on EU for example feels like the bullet exits .5ms after I click, where as on US it feels instantaneous.

Server side I don’t really notice EU players on NA feeling harder to hit. I feel like the game is really hit or miss though, and when I am 100% confident that I am aiming directly on target I get consistently good results on both US and EU. The only time I’ve experienced visible lag of other players or myself only happens right before the server crashes, otherwise it’s a very pleasant experience. That’s just my honest opinion.

(Mustang) #254

@acQu:

I think all the netcode weirdness stems from the principle of shifting from hit detection server side to hit detection client side, this has the advantage that you don’t have to lead/lag your target and is wysiwyg, however it does seem to do some weird things when different pingers play together, e.g. dying around corners, killing whilst reloading, etc.

(acQu) #255

Well, Inferno, you have good machine, right? So this is your experience. As said, high ping is one thing, and the other thing is FPS and netcode; unordered thoughts.

To give an example again: i am at a corridor with someone who i know has a really good machine with high FPS and he seems almost invincible to me, unhittable so to speak, even in a situation where i open fire first and surprise him. I shoot my bullets at him, but they somehow don’t do anything. It is like they are not taken into consideration, like his FPS interferes with my FPS from the netcode perspective.

Only theory here of course, but again: i think high spec machiners with better FPS have unfair advantage from netcode. It would be pay to win actually lol :slight_smile:

EDIT another example: i was fairly ok player in W:ET. There is one thing i can do really really well. If there is a door and i am on the one side and my enemy is on the other side and he decides to go through the door, usually if he steps through the door, he will receive 3 headshots from me. I am very good at this and know the technique, it is a more defensive but effective playstile. Pretty simple actually, just headshot him by holding your crosshair at height of shoulders and if he decides t step through the door he is dead. This does not seem to work in DB. I had the exact situation yesterday. The guy just went through the door and simply does not fall down. He just runs through and kills me. I think situations like this shouldn’t be possible and because of netcode these situations are possible however. It should not be like that.

EDIT2 to back that feeling of FPS/netcode stuff a bit more up. I know low spec machiners by reading forums. There are guys i simply can hit better. They go down fast and i can hit them very good and shooting them gives me a far more consistent feeling (they almost go down too fast) compared to other guys, which seem to have built in shield or something. It is not the movement or skill, it is my bullets are just more responsive on these guys (low spec machiners). And it is not the ping as far as i can judge, because there are other guys being around in the same range as other guys, but yet the difference is their PC gives good FPS and the ones i get down more fast get lower FPS while at about same ping.

(Kendle) #256

I have to say I think you’re right acQu, and I say that as someone who doesn’t have any of the issues you’re experiencing, and I’m guessing that’s because I only play on EU servers, to which I have a very low ping (I’m 60 miles from them and have a 120Mb connection), and I also hardly ever drop below 100FPS.

I’m guessing hardware plays quite a large part in how well this game appears to work for each of us.

(acQu) #257

[QUOTE=MrFunkyFunk;456464]My post was in no way a “RTCW/ET/QW did it better”. From that lot I only played QW competitively and for a short time back in 2007.
Moving to DB was from a wish to get away from what was being done everywhere by every game company. In some aspects it does but still sticking to safe choices instead of innovation or mold breaking. It’s still a good little game, we’re still in alpha, but the magic I felt when I joined end of january isn’t there anymore.
Sure there might be some nostalgia and some people who can’t accept change that will always criticize and not move forward.
This is a new game but the issue for me now is: who will be left to play the game if it alienates even some parts of SD fans around these boards? At this cost are we sure the game will be played by the new targeted public long enough to be a “successful operation”?

I don’t expect to see all I, or mostly others, said ever make it into the game, I already accepted there wouldn’t be any real movements mechanic so it’s left to the combat system (for the fighting part, I won’t talk again of the maps/objectives). And in that area I find it really boring past a few matches, I didn’t see any wrong talking about TTK in this very thread since it is related to some changes introduced with this patch like iwound said.

Saying that part of the game is perfect is like putting blinders and not see the many disheartened players who don’t come to the forums or start the game anymore. Sure in that lot there some people living in the past, some who still don’t get the alpha concept but there are also some who really wish to see the game succeed.

It’s been 3 weeks so I’m sure we can expect an update soo and let this thread die of its old age.[/QUOTE]

Regarding the nostalgia and the people not getting the concept of an “alpha” :smiley: Take a look at this quote:

Note to devs: Want to stand out as an fps? make a Quake clone. Seriously. No ****er else is interested in making a fast, simple but addictive fps shooter.

Hahaha, sorry i couldn’t hold that.

It is just so weird the terminology we use: “this is an alpha and this is a new game”, haha, you mean with new game what? To SD defence, they have adorable concepts, but the base game is, well … you know what i want to say :slight_smile:

Just sayin’: people wishing for a quake clone are hardcore, yes, but they are actually right that just the mere clone of quake would already make it an outstanding game in today’s fps landscape. Imagine what happens if the character concepts are built on a quak’ish game. Oh lord … :tongue:

I ahve that quote from here by the way: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-29-splash-damages-new-game-dirty-bomb-shows-off-a-war-torn-london-bridge

Sorry for going into other topic quick, but i just could not hold that :smiley:

(Bangtastic) #258

black magic nothing else,

we need a network-smoothing-factor to solve stated issue

(Violator) #259

There is something in the FPS, now that I’ve upgraded to an i7 Haswell (didn’t upgrade my gfx) I’m getting way better FPS (was 30-40 and now its 80-130!) and generally better k/d, I can track things a lot better + don’t get the choppiness I used to get. I still get the odd ‘shot before you’re round the corner’ thing, usually from a high pinger but its pretty rare now. I only play on EU so high pingers are few and far between now that we have more players filling the non-EU servers.

Pretty happy with the TTK now in this patch, ‘instagib’ headshots are not so easy to get but still get that feeling of dying in one shot when one lands on me, but I need the regular 3 or 4 to return the favour (bar the sniper ofc). Headshots take more skill to land now which IMHO is a good thing and should be rewarded accordingly.

The Eye’s pistol is pretty useless (in my hands at least), however Skyhammer’s is a beast. Would like to see a more up-front recon class (e.g. sten ‘n’ satchels ‘n’ smoke bombs).

(Raviolay) #260

[QUOTE=Tast1c;457001]black magic nothing else,

we need a network-smoothing-factor to solve stated issue[/QUOTE]

I would rather turn it off for lower pings tbh.