[quote=“straightforwardScene;25583”]You’re not understanding what pay to win means.
[/quote]
This comes up so often these days. People seem to think pay to win now just means “they’re trying to make me pay for something I don’t think I should pay for”
No, as was already explained p2w is when you get an advantage by paying real money you cannot get without. Perhaps you could go so far as to say p2w is getting an advantage by paying real money that you cannot get without an extreme amount of game play time but even if you did say that it is not the case here.
This is the acceptable type of F2P system where money only shortcuts you a little but the things you get from the shortcuts do not make enough of a difference to stop you beating another player except at the highest level. In public games I guarantee a good player could take the starter mercs with starter kits and destroy every casual player in a server.
I still don’t agree with the F2P system in general but this is definitely acceptable.
If the grind is sufficiently long, which it is, then the fact that you are able to get something doesn’t negate the advantage lost when you don’t have it at the moment. This would be a moot point if you could unlock everything necessary for comp play within 1-2 weeks. But when it takes longer to just get one merc (as opposed to several necessary ones) then yes, people who pay get a definitive (temporary) advantage.
Moving goalposts by defining advantage as something that only occurs when one absolutely cannot obtain X through playable means is not what this discussion is about. Is there a definitive and demonstrable advantage between level 1’s playing and paying? Yes. Level 5? Not as much, but still Yes. How about at very high levels? Then the answer becomes no.
Regardless of how often you play, at lower levels you will have a demonstrable and factual advantage over the same lower level who does not pay.
If you have any facts about how this advantage is not important - well, that’s a different discussion, but still relevant. However, this advantage exists whether you believe it is relevant or not.
EDIT: Finally, there are many examples of F2P whereas the only microtransactions are related to convenient account options (like larger stash spaces) which can be achieved without paying via muling or aesthetic choices - IE: Buyable Color Palettes (Warframe), Weapon Skins (Almost all), Player Skins (Almost all), Unique Player Morph Visuals (Path of Exile, Guild Wars 1). “Shortcut” transactions that are designed to overtake “Grind Walls” normally are bad ideas for said games as it takes a much longer “overlap” time for those advantages to not be considered advantages anymore. If the “overlap” time was much shorter, then you’d be absolutely correct in that said shortcuts are mostly meaningless and designed for casual players to obtain things with less hassle.
ok. Aside from my personal point of view that you can play competive with every merc (your skill is the deciding factor of your sucess not the merc).
Lets see. The current mercs that are usually desired for comps are Fragger, Vassili, Bushwacker, Skyhammer, Sawbonez. You can only bring 3 on your own. You allready got Skyhammer covered from day 1.
You get a nice fat credit boost with the first couple of lvl. that will allow you to buy one of the 30k either Vassili or Sawbonez. In 2 weeks you can grind the other (if you are good or grind a bit harder you can even afford one of the 50k). Boom playing skill aside you are ready to play the game the same way the best teams can. add the free rotation ontop and you are more than ready.
We are not moving any goalposts we are taking the literal meaning of Pay to win. You have to invest real money to increase your chance of winning / progressing in the game. which in DB you don’t have to.
Your examples F2P:
Guild Wars. is a fullprize game. You have to pay before you get anything conversely I would expect to get everything for my money (if they turned F2P recently my bad but point still stands the game was paid in full by those that bought it. Any F2P money is just a easy cashgrab now).
Path of Exile. Yes a nice model I agree. But I’d like to point out that as a diablo like grinding for better gear (random drops or trough shops) to stay competive with other players and against the enviorment is the whole gameplay.
Warframe and convenient account options.
I played WF quite alot and I think their system is fair (the colorpalette Idea was genius and made me cash over pretty fast). But is it better then DB certainly not.
You have to grind constantly in the game. Everything is locked down behind grindwalls and randomdrops.
Want a new frame (consider that the analogues to a merc) you have to get blueprints (credit grind). You have to hunt down parts (credit and random drop grind). Once you have everything you need to wait several days, till it is built up. Then you have to level up that frame, to unlock all his abilities. To improve him further you have to use augmentcards (random drop) and can increase the ammount / quality through special items (grind, random drop, waiting for events / alerts).
The same applies for pretty much anything in that game (i.e. weapons…)
All or parts of that can be bypassed by throwing money at them.
Furthermore Warframe uses a limited loadout system. You can only increase the amount of Weapons and Frames that are avaible to you by spending real money. Want to try out a different frame/weapon but have no slot tough luck sell one of the other. Realizing that the new frame/weapon is not to your likeing and you want the old back? Well you gotta build a new one from ground up.
In DB you unlock mercs permanently and will always have access to it. In games that limit your inventory you can never get everything unless you pony over money no matter how long or good you play the game.
Pay to win basically means that you’re paying money to the Dev team in order to get better loadouts for your character. Personally that’s all preference in my book. Someone may play the default Proxy loadout better than I play a cobalt one, I can’t see how having a blue cobalt card (which is just a skin with the same loadout as a bronze card) can make me a better player.
[quote=“irishroy;24580”]is HD still to come on your video? 
While I don’t think this game is truly Pay2Win, the prices for Mercs in Credits are still somewhat high. (Are the DEVs trying to make the “playability” longer by increasing the grinding-time, or, what’s the point behind that?)
I understand, F2P is nop charity, however there could be made a lot more $ than just by selling Mercs and Loadouts cards.
Like Weapon- and Merc-skins, Camos, Cosmetics, Cosmetics and Cosmetics
http://fs1.directupload.net/images/150606/6ib6a24q.jpg[/quote]
Or they could make nada while spending time on cosmetics and end up bankrupt.
Building your business plan on the hope people will spend money on useless things is not viable. Unless you meet certain specific circumstances (you have enough to sustain the model not working at start, you can divert enough power to building a constant stream of new cosmetics, you use this business plan on a game that is already funded by previous sales, etc…).
There are very few games who succed on cosmetics only, because they meet these specific criterias.
Thinking you can make a game profitable on the good-will of your players is naive
[quote=“sunnyCentury;25351”]The game is Pay to Win, may not be Pay For Fun But it is. The Credit earning it way to low,
1,000C Equipment Case
Cobalt drop is .1% - Gold .4%
Silver 1.5% - 3% Bronze
Iron15% - 80% Lead
$34.99 Elite case(10 cards)
Silver 80% - Gold 15% - Cobalt 5%
and you might get a card for the character you don’t want or don’t have.
Credit boosters are insanely overpriced $2.99 for 6hrs Playtime. everything is too high in price. If I want gold fletcher I need $10 for the character, $20 for load out bundle(10 Cards Bronze) so I’ll need to buy another one, then trade up to gold. that’s $50 + 12,000C(Several hours of game time to earn).
If I buy Elite Cases I need spend at least $20 and buy fletcher for $10 + 4,000C
Clearly needs work on monetization[/quote]
Don’t rely on random drop and random card buying, simple.
You DON’T need anything besides Bronze loadouts. Simple
Bronze loadouts are ALL available in the store for in-game money, no gamble needed, you chose precisely the loadout you want. Simple
Stick to that, it’s a matter of 3 weeks to have your prefered Merc with your prefered loadout. Let’s say 1 month.
You like the game? Buy the Starter Pack or whatever it’s called. You’ll end up with more than needed to fully explore the game while getting in-game money in the process to unlock anyhting you want.
E.g. : this game costs 30€.
This game is not even close to be p2w.
If you wannt true p2w title then try out one of Ubisoft online titles(cant post name, forum rules forbid it).
Compared to the crap they put together there, in DB publisher is practically giving stuff away for free.
A bit of breakdown: that unnamed game has 3 classes: Assault, Recon and Specialist. Specifics are irrelevant.
Anyways. Game scores one of the most primitive and greedy “f2p” models ive ever seen.
Everything cost a ton, literally, you have to play for a month, every day for at least 2 hours, to buy a gun. Bumper, weapon progression is completely linear, eg every next weapon tier is better than previous one, fact. Going into game with T5 weapon vs players with T8 weapons is suicide. Moronic, you cant just save up and buy gun from highest tier, you have to progressively buy guns from each tier, one by one(do you wannt it or not). Selling stuff is not an option, you get like 5% of original price back.
Another “amazing” feature is that latest tier(for all weapons for all classes) they have impletemented is simply default weapons(what you get when you start game, basic ones) with “-H” added and their stats bumped by 70-100%. They are not even reskinned.
Theres basic M24(that is made to be a total crap, since its a default weapon) and then theres M24-H, that deals damage compared to Nemesis or KSVK(an anti-materiel sniper rifle that fires .50 BMG/12.7mm rounds), simply because its a high tier gun. Same was done with tier that came be4 that. basically they just take weapons from previous tiers, bump their stats and then add then back again. Talk about making money from thin air, amount of work involved is nonexiting, but money they make off idiots is quite real.
Same system is for armors and devices. With a few additional “bonuses” to make players spend money.
By various estimates it would take player 6 to 8 months of pure grind(eg purely saving, no extras), constantly being underpowered in the process, for a decent gear. And all that time you will be constantly pitted aganst p2w wallet warriors who can simply buy all top gear with real money.
Game has horrible balance that is excused by “player base is 2 small for proper matchmaking”. Problem is that they been riding this excuse for past 3 years. Instead of making system that would actually work, they just rattle it every few months so that things get even worse and then back again - “improved”.
Game essentially has just 1 mode, capture the point.
Game has no pretty much no events. At least nothing worth mentioning. Publishers definition of “event” is just another sale… for ppl who are willing to spend real cash on the game. Free players get zilch(there are no sales that affect free players, only for premium currency). Over last few years there has been a couple of promo “events” that were mainly made to promo game on Steam(since when there is somekind of giveaway or discount then Steam has tendency to make popups for those games), since what was given away were a total and utter crap… that you couldnt even sell(imagine “a free DLC” worth of “whole” 300 credits in DB).
Publisher loves to boast how they are working with community and how much they appretiate feedback. Reality is a bit different. Feedback is ignored, bugs are not fixed(even critical bugs are often left unattended for months and years at the time), critique is rewarded with bans. And they continue to bs how closely they are workign with comunity.
Its kinda have become a local meme alredy on games forums - “other sources”, eg sources that no1 knows about. Pretty much every patch they implemented has features that no1 wanted, yet problems that players complain about everywhere(ingame, forums, facebook, reviews, etc) and all the time are ignored. And official explanation that feedback for those unwanted features/changes comes from “other sources”.
Bugs, numerous glitches, nonbanned cheaters(since they spend real dough on the game), nonexiting balance, horrible game optimization, extremely limited content and so on and so forth… Hell, DB is perfect game in comparition.
If on top of that they implement event system similar to Combat Arms, game will become even better.
Dirty bomb is far to be a pay to win game. If you need an engineer you can earn 30K credits for proxy. With Skyhammer, Aura and Proxy, you have enough for play.
Knowing which game you mean. Kinda agreed that grind is real. and the H weapons where a bad move. But credit where credit is due the 20 euro, unlock every non premium content with leveling instead of buying is a nice thing (and worth its money).
And the Matchmaking in that game is top notch (I read a paper about it). I have never seen a game where matches result so often in a draw and you instantly know that missing a single player is a loss. If ranked in DB becomes as good as this I’m very pleased.
I’d agree it was pay to win…
If buying a Merc constituted somewhere nearing 1k Hours of Play.
You were able to buy and slot Augments, and purchase additional augment slots for your Mercs.
Able to buy clearly more powerful weaponry with cash only.
But. Its not.
Everything after Bronze is a Cosmetic. And Everything up to Gold can be crafted (soon Cobalt will be craftable as well). Weapons are Side-grades, not upgrades. Mercs are decently balanced (its hard to be perfect).
All money does is accelerate the process. You trade time or appearance, for Money. Which is exactly what a Pay Model SHOULD be. I remember everyone screaming about how glorious League of Legends’ Pay Model was, and this is set up the exact same way. The only thing I’ve seen ‘better’ is in Smite where you can pay a set price to unlock all current, and future gods. Not their skins, not their sound packs. Just to unlock the gameplay.
DB is as close as an FPS gets to that LOL pay model. If you want to see a P2W FPS, go look at Combat Arms, and Battlefield F2P
AVA has taken a pay to win spin since Aeria games bought it. Triple Barrel 10 gauge shotgun
One shot kill. Two shells. Or well it would be. You can get that sucker up to 5 shells before you have to reload using cash shop items. Of course when they sold it in a package it included those two cash shop items.
Price for this lovely baby? Gambling only! Unless you took their once in a lifetime ultra low price of 60 dollars on it’s release!
Having to buy mercs seems not so pay-to-win
[quote=“Gi.Am;27085”]Knowing which game you mean. Kinda agreed that grind is real. and the H weapons where a bad move. But credit where credit is due the 20 euro, unlock every non premium content with leveling instead of buying is a nice thing (and worth its money).
And the Matchmaking in that game is top notch (I read a paper about it). I have never seen a game where matches result so often in a draw and you instantly know that missing a single player is a loss. If ranked in DB becomes as good as this I’m very pleased.[/quote]
You just prove my point - pay 20 bucks for Inf Pack and youre golden. Buy AAA and you earn about 250% credits per game. Etc. Just pay and youre good 2 go. finger to all f2p players who get nothing of sorts And whole system is intentionally made taht earning and keeping on the same level with paying customers is impossible if youre trying to play for free.
MM is that game is an utter crap. People have been moaning about it for as long as game has been out. On low levels, sure, right up till level 8, when newbies are thrown to the wolfes in genpop. Seeing some low level(with his T2 gear) thru scope of T9 SR made me almost cry sometimes. They always end up with kd of like 0.1- 0.2 . Running targets of sorts, since they barely can make a dent to high level fully geared players.
And God forbid you try to leave mid-game, since youre simply outmatched. “Player-friendly” system peanltize you for it with rather notable fine(for armor “maintenance”).
I must agree that many players mistake higher level loadout cards to be better than the lower level ones.
Once player get to Bronze its just a matter of luck. You dont NEED Gold+ cards, they are merely to tingle your self-esteem. As soon as player get Bronze and access to 3 slots for perks its all about leveling up low level cards to get preferred combo on Bronze/Silver loadout card.
In fact, most of my mercs use Silver/Bronze cards, since i simply get better perks combos there. Altho i have only 3 golden cards, 2 of them are inferior to silver ones due to crappy selection of perks and one is an exact replica of silver card(i had a Vassili silver card that i decided to upgrade since i was a bit unhappy with its primary and one of the perks - 4 silver cards, 4000 creds and i got exactly the same card, but in gold, lol).
Imo best stategy is to just play missions, upgrade low level cards one by one and slowly collect remaining money for next merc.
Ive been playing a lot lately, since i kinda like mission oriented part and with new system they reset every 3 hours, so im like a dog chasing a bone all the time… 3 games with Bushwalker… now 6 games in Objective… now Support Exp… Earning 10-12k a day if youre willing to spend half of it playing is completely possible.
Considering that mercs are rather well balanced and continue to get balanced bit by bit all the time, there is no need to own them all. Each merc has specific role to play and can perform on par with ANY other merc, unless player is an idiot. Even basic ones can complete on even level with most recent additions without much trouble, once player learns their weak and strong sides(only a complete moron with charge Rhino headon, no matter the merc or loadout hes using, unless youre Jihadist Bomber - jump in, die, drop a deuce) and get at least Bronze loadout card to play with.