DB Design Doc: In-Session Progression System

(INF3RN0) #141

Yes please I was hoping to test this soon.

(Bangtastic) #142

Over a year later, any updates at this front or was it scrapped? Dum dum duuuuum oO :smiley:

(BAMFana) #143

Seconding this request. I’m very interested in any news about in-session progression. I have some qualms about the system proposed in the OP, but I think some sort of in-session progression system is necessary for this game to reach its full potential. I also think the quality of that system will make or break the game.

What I’d like to see is something more akin to the in-session progression systems in Dota 2, LoL and Smite, but adjusted to fit with FPS gameplay. Put in very simple terms; the system needs to be deep, diverse and have a significant impact on gameplay. It should, however, be less significant than the in-session progression in Dota 2, LoL and Smite, to avoid it ruining basic FPS gameplay. For example, hp and gun damage should probably not increase on level up by default, although for certain mercs it might make sense to have abilities that can increase hp or damage.

I think it makes sense to design the power of improved abilities relative to the default power level of the merc. Some mercs can be designed to start out weak but gain great benefits from ability improvements, and the other way around. This would make certain mercs stronger in the early game, while others will shine in the late game, thus adding more depth to merc selection.

Three example mercs to follow: Proxy, Nader and Rhino. The basic template is similar to Dota 2 (and other similar games) where each level up gives you one point to spend on improving an ability. Bear in mind that these are just examples of how the system could look. It obviously needs a lot more work; this is just to show the basic idea.

1. Proxy
(default mine changes: reduce damage so that it doesn’t one-hit kill unless the player is already hurt, make the damage non-stacking (can’t take damage from two mines at the same time) – this makes the mines function more like debuffs than weapons)

Mines
Level 1: Larger blast radius.
Level 2: Concussive blast (players who take damage from a mine can’t move for x seconds).
Level 3: Additional mine (three mines total), reduced cooldown.

Shotgun
Level 1: Faster rate of fire.
Level 2: Longer effective range (longer falloff distance).
Level 3: Tighter spread.

Airburst
(new ability: special shotgun shot that doesn’t use ammo, uses ability use instead. Does more damage than regular shotgun at melee range, but next to no damage outside of melee range, doesn’t have a projectile it just does a certain amount of damage to anything within the cone of fire. Has a kickback effect that sends proxy flying in the oppsite direction of the shot if proxy is not on the ground when triggering the ability)
Level 1: Reduced cooldown.
Level 2: Increased kickback.
Level 3: Massively increased cone of fire (anything within a 120 degree cone in front of proxy should get hit).

2. Nader
(default martyrdom changes: reduce damage significantly (martyrdom should never kill a full hp enemy), reduce countdown to explosion time, remove self-gib)
(default grenade launcher changes: reduce damage)

Martyrdom:
Level 1: Martyrdom can be triggered while alive, no self-damage from explosion.
Level 2: Significantly increase blast radius.
Level 3: Instant activation, no countdown.

Grenade launcher:
Level 1: Increase blast radius.
Level 2: Remote activation (hit secondary fire button to explode grenades mid air).
Level 3: Increase rate of fire, reduce cooldown.

SMG:
Level 1: Increase magazine size, reduce spread.
Level 2: Each SMG bullet hitting an enemy reduces ability cooldowns by x.
Level 3: Increase rate of fire.

3. Rhino
(default stat changes; make Rhino weaker before ability improvements: increase spread, reduce damage and reduce hp, for example ( this is an example of a merc that is weak in the early game but powerful in the late game))

Minigun:
Level 1: Increase damage (more than current rhino damage)
Level 2: Reduce spread, increase effective range (increase falloff range).
Level 3: No spin-up time, shoots instantly.

Body:
Level 1: Increase hp.
Level 2: Increase run speed.
Level 3: Further increase hp.

Helix suit
(new activated ability, default effect is immediately starting health regen, long cooldown)
Level 1: Increase health regen speed.
Level 2: Reduce cooldown.
Level 3: Significantly reduce all weapon spread and recoil for x seconds.

In case this post isn’t controversial enough already, I’ll finish with a suggestion to remove ammo drops and give all mercs unlimited spare ammo. Give the firesupport mercs abilities that give friendly players buffs (more damage, faster rof, less spread, et cetera) for a certain amount of time instead. The reasoning behind this suggestion comes from a few realizations I’ve made while playing: 1) running out of ammo is very frustrating and happens frequently to players who stay alive for long periods of time (I rarely play non-firesupport mercs for this reason alone – at least I can drop myself ammo then), 2) running around dropping ammo for teammates is boring; using abilities should be fun, it shouldn’t feel like a chore, and 3) frees up ability slots for more interesting abilities.

I’ve previously proposed a system where players could use experience from the in-session progression system to buy ammo (thus paying for their ammo by slowing their progression), which would also solve my issues with ammo drops. I prefer the above solution, though.

(INF3RN0) #144

I’d rather not see the progression system have a snow-ball effect in terms of player power. Although abilities don’t always directly influence combat roles and are less intrusive than gun play, I still think it can be done in a more complimentary way. What I like is the idea of unique merc ultimates, but not as super abilities or stat buffs that you unlock based on your performance or XP. Something more along the lines of a one-time use ability that compliments normal player actions or creates unique opportunities, and that becomes available at specific time intervals for both teams. The benefits would come from how and when these abilities were used and perhaps would have harder counters available. These could be significantly more useful and impacting, but still require practiced player skill to use effectively. If map mechanics and spawns are improved, something like this could allow that one well coordinated push that results in obj completion.

(Glottis-3D) #145

i dont like spread/damage/range changes as a progress.
at least for primaries.
i dont like speed adjustment.
these things influense the battle too much, to play with them

i like
-more abilities more power/cooldown - and these NEW abilities (or improved old ones) should be very clearly visible. like BLACK turrets, RED molotov etc.
-fun stuff like double pistols, or some unique weapons (sniper crossbow, chain crossbow ?)
-additional ammo

(BAMFana) #146

I agree that it’s important that the level up rewards don’t change gun effectivity, hitpoints, speed and other directly combat related stats too much. If the system is going to have a significant impact, I think it’s necessary to have a certain amount of such changes, however.

The examples I posted are just that, though; examples. The point was to illustrate the following principles that I think the system should adhere to:

  1. The system should be significant enough that it dynamically changes gameplay throughout the round; this allows for a deeper meta where merc selection and level up reward selection directly influence the tempo and direction of any given round.

  2. The system should allow for a large variety of “builds”. This will only happen if the system fulfills two basic requirements: There has to be a significant amount of different rewards available, all equally powerful depending on the circumstances, and the effect of those rewards have to be significant enough to make the decision between different rewards meaningful.

  3. The system should be fun to use. Think of it in terms of an RPG: If the level up system isn’t “fun” to use, if the players don’t go “YESSSSSS” whenever they hear the level up sound, if they don’t look forward to picking their rewards, if they’re not discussing which “build” is the “best”, then your game is probably not going to be very successful.

(Glottis-3D) #147

i as well want upgrades to be “YAHAY FREAKIN AWESOME!!!”. i want to want to get them asap!

(tokamak) #148

I don’t mind flat-out statistic / effectiveness rewards at all.

I see the in-session rewards mostly as a reward for players who keep sticking around and playing the game.

Player strength should follow an S-curve from 100% to say, 125%.


And hell, why not make it a daily progress? If it’s all in-session then there’s all kinds of little frustrations that will occur. Players getting attached to certain servers or teams. Statpadding and everything.

However, a player growing quickly stronger and maintaining that progress throughout the day will only make him feel attached to that progress and make him come back whenever he has the time. Addictive as hell.

An above-average player should be able to get 80% of that S curve complete within three maps. Roughly speaking. A below-average player needs to take four or five maps. Anyway, getting the first steps into progress shouldn’t take too long or too much effort. It’s simply to generate an emotional connection with what you’ve achieved in the game and keep on playing.

The upper limit is another interesting thing. It shouldn’t take long to fully max out one character. But maxing out the second, third, fourth fifth etc should take considerably longer. This means that after that first hurdle, the strength of progress doesn’t come from absolute power but from the amount of maxed-out characters a player can pick from during the day.

Combine this with XP-rewards for the first win, the first kill, the first objective each day and you’re basically selling F2P crack.

AAAND: All of this is just for the first phase of the entire game. Once SD has this down then you can start devising different tech-trees to level through for each character. However, you’ll have to stick to the tech-tree during that day (or reset and start over). This means that players will feel compelled to try different things on different days. Only reinforcing the desire to come back tomorrow.

It shouldn’t be really about tactics and gameplay. It should be about making the players grow an affinity with their account. If you want both at the same time then things get intrusive and frustrating.

(PixelTwitch) #149

I have a suggestion for the XP stuff…

Maybe have XP increase at a standard rate but maybe just have the distribution split between the team depending on who is doing the best with a small chunk ontop for objectives, kills and badges.

This way thoughout the match everyone would eventually reach max level and be back on = footing however on the way there someone on your team (the person doing the “best”) may progress slightly faster.

ie, 1000xp is shared between the team every 1min
players get +10xp per kill, +200 for an objective, +5 for a Finish, +2 for a headshot and so on.

This would give the opportunity to allow advantages while not letting it landslide.

(BAMFana) #150

I agree that there should be a steady trickle of free “experience”, in the same way Dota 2 has a steady trickle of free gold. I disagree that it should eventually put all players on an even footing, though. Instead, the system should be designed so that support players and players who are doing poorly still get some levelups, to ensure that everyone is at least getting some action. Certain rewards should also be spread around the team. Completing an objective should award the entire team with “experience”, but the ones who completed the objective should receive a greater amount than the ones who didn’t.

I’m using quotation marks around experience, since some other denominator for the progression metric might make more sense lore-wise. If the abilities are all designed as technical upgrades rather than merc skills, it would make more sense to award “credits” for completing “bounties” (or similar terminology) that is used to buy “upgrades” or “tech”.

(spookify) #151

I think Progression would only work in Pubs.

Matches everyone will be at max level.

Not sure if I like Progression BUT I like the creativity!!!

Side Note: People are talking about DOTA and LOL and I ask you PLEASE put in a Sub system!!! DOTA and LOL darn near ruined my relationship. (No Joke!)
30 Minutes to set aside no matter what was really hard and I had to quit or basically lose my g/f. FPS games and D3 are pop in pop out type games however in ranked xT it will be different. So I ask of you please check out my SOS system that I posted about somewhere. (Search O Sub).

http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/39818-Sprint-03-2014-UX?p=493904&viewfull=1#post493904

(Kendle) #152

[QUOTE=spookify;495524]I think Progression would only work in Pubs.

Matches everyone will be at max level.
[/QUOTE]

I’d agree, but I don’t think SD do. From what they’ve said before they seem determined that XP will be part of match play as well, despite demonstrating that it basically doesn’t fit with Stopwatch mode.

(tokamak) #153

Because of the asymmetrical xp distribution among defenders and attackers? Just compensate for that with a modifier. Not that difficult.

Beyond that we’ve seen enough games that make in-session progress work in the competitive scene. Not just Dota but COD as well.

(Smooth) #154

Even though this is mostly irrelevant now for in-session progression (see incoming Anti’s post) it’s very easy to give attacking teams larger bonuses for attempting and completing objectives compared to their defensive counterparts. Or as others (tokamak) have suggested, we could simply have attacker & defender modifiers on all XP variables.

We need XP gain rates to be the same whether you’re playing attack or defence to prevent bias anyway, so that’s not an issue for a system like this.

(Anti) #155

Right now we’ve put any kind of in-session progression on hold, for a number of reasons.

[ul]
[li]We’re tending towards max 15 minute rounds, be they with two objectives or 20. We don’t really feel in-session rewards can work that well in matches of that length
[/li][li]In-session upgrades could have negative impact on Stopwatch balance. We could probably fix that given enough time and testing, but it would take a lot of both to get it right
[/li][li]For in-session rewards to be meaningful we feel they need to be quite powerful. In our pasts tests they ended up either being powerful, but then character abilities felt too weak, or they were too weak compared to character abilities to be worth worrying about
[/li][li]Each in-session reward reduces our options to add exciting new characters and account progression
[/li][/ul]

We’d really like to do a specific mode at some point in future that is built around in-session progression, be it old school style Campaigns or something new, but to make it work well we really feel we need to add it to a mode that can better support a progression system rather than Stopwatch, Objective or Execution as they stand right now.

(spookify) #156

I like the 15 minutes per round play.

If I may ask how will ranked work in the fashion. (As you hear me complaining about time and being stuck at the keyboard)

Worst Case:
Ranked Best of 3 Stopwatch!
15 Round One Attackers
14:59 Round Two Defenders

15 Round One Attackers
14:59 Round Two Defenders

15 Round One Attackers
14:59 Round Two Defenders

90ish Minutes at your PC is crazy so I dont think best of 3 would work like in the old days.

Is ranked going to be one and done?
15 Round One Attackers
14:59 Round Two Defenders

30 ish Minutes still a long time to be stuck at a keyboard…

Question to ask: Is there anyway to play a ranked style without the burden of not moving from your keyboard?

(Smooth) #157

You’ll have the option to pause and have a half-time break.

Honestly 30 min matches with a short half-time break seems more than reasonable to me.

Especially when compared to other highly popular tournament games such as CS:GO, LoL & Dota which each have longer match times.

(tokamak) #158

For ET and ETQW this wasn’t necessary at all. The (individual) upgrades were quite minor. That didn’t matter, it was just having a american/axis officer congratulating you on your promotion that kept you playing.

If powerful upgrades really are going to eat into your character assortment then I wouldn’t fret too much about how meaningful the upgrades are. Even if toned down they’ll see provide this very valuable emotional gratification.

I certainly wouldn’t go as far as creating whole new abilities out of thin air for them. Simply amplifying they already have is fun enough. So we end up with players with a bit more improved health, accuracy and ability proefficiency. Then finally you can add something more unique, like Nader holding max 8 grenades. Or Red Eye holding infinite heat vision. That sort of stuff.