Continuation of my feedback post on nexon forums.

(fubar) #21

We won’t force a team to fully complete a map however, as it results in too many draws. At the end of the time-limit the team who has progress furthest along the PRIMARY objectives will win

Not a huge fan of this, at all. If spawntimes, multiple mercs and approaches to a map come into play, there are way too many things out of a player’s control that can randomly decide the outcome of a map or stage. If the maps are designed to be be completed within 5 to 7 minutes, there wont ever be any issues with draws. Everyone hates a draw, reasonably so, but being awarded a win for… nothing isn’t the way to go either. Maps can and should not ever be decided by a single stage. Again, if you’re getting draws in the current stage of the game, this is a map design flaw. NOT a stopwatch issue.

(Protekt1) #22

What do you mean random? If a team has progressed a bit further than the other team, they deserve the win by a small margin. It isn’t a huge blowout but they are still ahead slightly and therefore I don’t see a reason why that shouldn’t count tbh.

(BomBaKlaK) #23

That’s pretty much what I say since a long time, with better explanation.

(fubar) #24

They don’t.

Due to the spawntime system in use, a certain stage can be entirely dictated by it. As seen in just about every high level match in ET and RtCW. Spawntimes hugely influence the push times of the attack and defensive. I don’t see it being anything else in this game either. Surely a team can adapt, but some spawns will favour stage A over stage B due to the variation in travel time it takes, or merely even something as simple as the map layout.

In terms of ET, having a favourable spawntime for the first stage supply (axis) can cause flag holds up to 5-6 minutes, or vice versa even flag losses on the 2nd or 3rd rush. Where as that same spawntime could be just perfect to defend the CP or last stage with. That being said, if I get fullheld on the supply flag and win merely by lucking out on the spawntime of their defense and get an early flag grab… I wont feel satisfied at all, I accomplished nothing, I got lucky. A random number determined my win, not my skill or my teams, just the fact that I had a better offset in spawn times. Vice versa I’d be pretty annoyed as the defending team too, they lost a single stage, which was not the primary objective and automatically lose without even being given a shot to defend the remaining stages?

You’ve got the same approach on “doc run” maps, ie ice, frostbite, adlernest, whichever. With a single objective to them. They rarely end in draws, because they’re simply designed to be hard to defend and can be broken by raw bruteforce.

Don’t let a random number, which is out of the player’s or team’s control determine the outcome of the ENTIRE map.

Edit as said in my main post, I’m all for using this approach on a public level. It makes sense, somewhat. But I’d really hate to see this being implemented into the final competitive live version.

(Rex) #25

[QUOTE=Smooth;499578]

[LIST]
[li]We won’t force a team to fully complete a map however, as it results in too many draws. At the end of the time-limit the team who has progress furthest along the PRIMARY objectives will win[/QUOTE]
[/li]

I absolutely agree with fubar. If games lead to too many draws or double fullholds it’s not the system which doesn’t work, but simply the maps! (Brink déjà vu anyone?)
Also I really dislike the objective rule. (See also this discussion here on the first few pages: Competitive feedback)

(Glottis-3D) #26

Simple as that:
Draw = DoubleFullhold. ==>> Map is too defencive in design.
If you want map to be in favour of attackers (and this is very right desision) change the map!! dont brake the Stopwatch awesomeness!

(fubar) #27

[QUOTE=krokodealer;499761]Simple as that:
Draw = DoubleFullhold. ==>> Map is too defencive in design.
If you want map to be in favour of attackers (and this is very right desision) change the map!! dont brake the Stopwatch awesomeness![/QUOTE]

In a nutshell, yes.

ET did the same mistake, as seen in the map pool for the past 9 years in competitive games. None, except for Radar, of the original maps have ever been touched again. There’s Goldrush with balancing changes, surely, but not a single map remained in the mappool, they all had the very same defensive setup to it, as Extraction/DirtyBomb maps seem to have, and forced way too many Draws/Doublefullholds. :stuck_out_tongue:

RtCW does the same, really, base and beach are hardly EVER played in the European scene, only really if forced upon by cup rules.

korkodealer has it perfectly right, if you want to avoid draws, change the map design.

(Glottis-3D) #28

korkodealer :>>>>

(Mustang) #29

Even with a double fullhold in ETQW the winning team was still the one that completed the most objectives though, right?

(fubar) #30

Never played ETQW, but in ET and RtCW a double fullhold is a round draw.

(Rex) #31

Same applies for ETQW. Double fullhold means no team was able to set a time, so it’s like fubar said a draw.
ET and ETQW had the basically the same rule system.

(k0k0nat) #32

Lets pray for am “early” SDK and costum maps \o/

Need more 2 seconds - YOLO Rush moments :smiley:

(Glottis-3D) #33

fixed!

:>>>>>

(xdc) #34

it seems like everything in the first post has already been addressed, also playing ETQW and ET I felt spawn-time was never really a big issue when you had medics and a spawn timer to follow.

The correct way to die in these games, is to die before the timer resets so you don’t have to sit through a long wait. Attack before the timer resets.

Respawn time in extraction is more friendly since it doesn’t respawn you in waves only, you just have to hit the 0 mark to be allowed to respawn anytime. So I don’t see any issue with spawn timing in Extraction, they have it right.

But the spawn timer at no means should never lie to you, it should always be consistent.

(Protekt1) #35

[QUOTE=xdc;499897]it seems like everything in the first post has already been addressed, also playing ETQW and ET I felt spawn-time was never really a big issue when you had medics and a spawn timer to follow.

The correct way to die in these games, is to die before the timer resets so you don’t have to sit through a long wait. Attack before the timer resets.

Respawn time in extraction is more friendly since it doesn’t respawn you in waves only, you just have to hit the 0 mark to be allowed to respawn anytime. So I don’t see any issue with spawn timing in Extraction, they have it right.

But the spawn timer at no means should never lie to you, it should always be consistent.[/QUOTE]

Spawning out of wave is a trap in this game, especially in pubs. They just spawn and immediately run back and die and repeat over and over again. But if everyone spawned as a wave each time, they’d more likely attack in as a team. That is just pubs though, but still kinda big impact of the gameplay experience if your team is just running into a meat grinder each time.