Competitive changes


(Takanasi) #21

[QUOTE=Mattc0m;304690]I’ve seen calls for more accurate guns / less random behavior before (ETQW, BF2, BF2142, and even Call of Duty). Whilst legitimate to a certain point, it’s certainly not game-changing nor as important as many “doom sayers” say it is. Comes down to the better teams always end up winning, and it’s got to do with more than just pure aim. In the end, Brink isn’t as “precise” as a shooter as a few other competitive shooters, yes, but this is fairly in line with being an objective-based, class-focused shooters.

What is more detrimental is creating a game that’s fundamentally different than the “vanilla” Brink, creating the divide between pro and casual players. This divide is far more detrimental to the long-term hopes of a competitive community than slightly inaccurate guns.[/QUOTE]
Damn, I do agree with the latter part, but I must insist that the vanilla ruleset is flawed.

You could simply lower the damages of the weapons slightly but have them extremely accurate. Killing would happen at pretty much the same speed but randomness would be greatly reduced.

I don’t understand why Splash Damage decided to go through with such large spreads after ET and ETQW, where the spreads are extremely small… They must know that it’s important.


(v1D) #22

If you put the grip attachment on your weapons, it feels like etqw spread which was very small (similar to that of rtcw). Et’s spread was almost like a laser beam… only other game I find that spread at is in QuakeLive with the LG :slight_smile:


(Kendle) #23

[QUOTE=Takanasi;304597]I absolutely disagree. A high spread in weapons in competitive games is a huge no. A high spread system adds randomness to fire fights that should never exist in a competitive game. The result of a firefight needs to be determined by the aim of the players, not a random number generator.
[/QUOTE]

I completely agree with you on that point, however I still maintain weapon behaviour must not be touched by a comp mod (if SD want to make those changes to the standard game, great, but there must not be one set of weapon characteristics for pub play and another for matches).

Let me explain a bit further.

When ET was released pretty much the entire RTCW community was against it, especially because they nerfed the MP40 / Thompson in ET compared to RTCW. When Bani, the creator of ETPro, ET’s comp mod, was asked to make ET’s SMG’s behave the same as RTCW’s he steadfastly refused, for a while.

Eventually, after ET had established itself as a competitive game, Bani created a new server cvar, “b_wolfrof”, which made the SMG’s behave as they had done in RTCW.

No one wanted it by then, it was rejected and ET carried on being played, and still is being played, with the nerfed SMG’s it started life with.

Also, Brink, like ET and RTCW before it, is a team game, balance in 1-v-1 firefights is not as important as balance between teams, and furthermore a diversity of weapons adds to the games appeal for many people, and with Brink’s body types there’s going to be even wider disparity between individuals in 1-v-1 situations.

To eliminate randomness in firefights you’d have to have everyone using the same gun, have the same body type and same health, and that IMO is completely against the core principle, and likely on-going appeal, of Brink.

I repeat, if SD want to make the guns more accurate etc., great, I’d welcome that with open arms, but if they don’t no potential future comp mod should touch weapon behaviour, IMHO.


(NeoRussia) #24

I think it just takes practice to kill with some of the weapons accurately. With the kross and carb specifically I’ve already seen people who can kill someone all the time with the first burst with aiming skill alone. Some of the rifles seem fine too, they are mainly balanced for longer ranges. Some like the rhett are inaccurate but can be more damaging than the carb.


(m3lior) #25

I really like a lot of the suggested changes, here, but some are awful.

Good:
Disable engineer ability to defuse hack boxes
Add cvars to control user abilities
Add cvars to control spawn timers individually, or just lengthen for defense
First person POV for spectator, as well as other optimizations for spec mode (colored teams, better stats, improved HUD for objectives, etc.)
Demo recording (obviously)
Numeric ping
Command to list all steamids

Any balance or weapon changes should be game wide - not specifically for comp. The ultimate goal is to make guns viable, without neutering them, or making them too powerful.
Best example of this is in regards to SMGs. In CS 1.6, the mp5 is an excellent weapon, but not great compared to ak, m4, or awp. At short range, a burst to the head is deadly (not a huge spread, but at least a little bit hard to control) but useless at range.

Remember when submitting suggestions to separate fact from opinion/bias…


(Rautakanki) #26

Bodytype limits are a must. 5on5 lightsmg spam is by far the best combination. Or dramatically change light bodytype. If nothing is done to this the game is going to be 5on5 lightcarb all day all long.


(m3lior) #27

I disagree. I think the current body type implementation is perfect (altho I think they could all use a minor speed boost). There is no best body-type. It just takes skill to use them all differently.


(v1D) #28

I would say that through all the scrims that I’ve had so far, lights and heavies are definitely used the least.


(Boltthrower) #29

[QUOTE=Kendle;305048]I completely agree with you on that point, however I still maintain weapon behaviour must not be touched by a comp mod (if SD want to make those changes to the standard game, great, but there must not be one set of weapon characteristics for pub play and another for matches).

Let me explain a bit further.

When ET was released pretty much the entire RTCW community was against it, especially because they nerfed the MP40 / Thompson in ET compared to RTCW. When Bani, the creator of ETPro, ET’s comp mod, was asked to make ET’s SMG’s behave the same as RTCW’s he steadfastly refused, for a while.

Eventually, after ET had established itself as a competitive game, Bani created a new server cvar, “b_wolfrof”, which made the SMG’s behave as they had done in RTCW.

No one wanted it by then, it was rejected and ET carried on being played, and still is being played, with the nerfed SMG’s it started life with.

Also, Brink, like ET and RTCW before it, is a team game, balance in 1-v-1 firefights is not as important as balance between teams, and furthermore a diversity of weapons adds to the games appeal for many people, and with Brink’s body types there’s going to be even wider disparity between individuals in 1-v-1 situations.

To eliminate randomness in firefights you’d have to have everyone using the same gun, have the same body type and same health, and that IMO is completely against the core principle, and likely on-going appeal, of Brink.

I repeat, if SD want to make the guns more accurate etc., great, I’d welcome that with open arms, but if they don’t no potential future comp mod should touch weapon behaviour, IMHO.[/QUOTE]

I can’t disagree with this more, as a hardcore et and rtcw player I clearly recall what you are talking about regarding wep spread changes from game to game. The change from rtcw to et was not that great(relative to the changes in brink) as you can still hit people from a distance with the tommy or mp 40. I don’t believe people are asking for laser pinpoint accuracy or no spread at all. Just a reduction so you can spot good players and skill is rewarded. As it currently stands this game is waaaaay to much spray and pray and I feel serious competitive gamers will not find this type of game play rewarding, as many duels simply come down to luck. The current spread greatly reduces the skill ceiling of this game.

As it stands right now I have trained myself to always aim for the head from years of playing rtcw and et but currently in brink I am having better luck at aiming for the upper body mass and just holding down fire rather then trying to have my good aiming rewarded with headshots. Its easier just to exploit the random spread generator at the largest part of the body then skilled crouching burst fire for headshots. close range I still aim for the head but thats about it. Lowering the spread would also help with the rate of fire and constant reloading complaints some players have had as if you missed its more your fault and not some random generator that decided you missed.


(Kendle) #30

The main thrust of my argument, which is being lost, which I guess is my fault for not labouring it, is that any changes to weapon behaviour should not be “changes for competition”, i.e. we end up with the same guns behaving differently on standard pub servers compared to competition match servers.

IF there are changes to weapons THEN they should be done by SD and apply to the game as a whole, not just something used in leagues and ladders.

(I know COD has a “hardcore” mode but that’s mis-selling if ever I saw it as “hardcore” is only used in “low skill” leagues, the top teams all play standard (core) mode because it requires more individual skill)

What I really don’t want to see is an SDK released and the “community” (i.e. small group of people out of self-interest) change weapon behaviour, I’d much rather any changes be made by SD and apply to everyone.

In other words I’m not arguing against more accurate guns, I’m arguing against a community modder making the guns more accurate for organised competition only.


(Necro-) #31

for bodytypes, 2 heavy 2 light is a good limit.


(Rautakanki) #32

How do you decide the winner in hostage/bot maps if both teams defend the fulltime. Which one got the package further away? How do you measure it if they are close together, needs checkpoints?


(Boltthrower) #33

I defiantly get what you are saying Kendle and I actually agree with you 95 percent of the time, but in this case I feel the current skill level and randomness on guns does not facilitate competitive play well and a LARGE competitive scene like rtcw and et had will simply not develop or be sustained as the gameplay is not rewarding enough intrinsically to competitive minded gamers.


(Hundopercent) #34

[QUOTE=Takanasi;304597]I absolutely disagree. A high spread in weapons in competitive games is a huge no. A high spread system adds randomness to fire fights that should never exist in a competitive game. The result of a firefight needs to be determined by the aim of the players, not a random number generator.

The spread of the automatic weapons definitely needs to be lowered, at least by 50% if not more. Just make all the weapons really accurate, except maybe the heavy cannons, and just add some damage drop off after a certain distance for SMG:s. It works very well in ET and it will work in Brink as well.

I feel like slamming my face in on the desk when my aim is directly at the enemy’s head and only 1 in 5 bullets hit, if that.

Also, are the iron sights supposed to lower the spread, because it doesn’t seem like it with SMG:s at least. With Assault Rifles I think it does.

Suggestions
Lower the spread of SMG’s by 80% or 90% and AR’s by 50%. Add damage fall off for SMG’s after a certain distance so you can’t “snipe” with them from too far away.

That way the SMG:s will be somewhat like a small version thompson/m40 from ET and the Assault Rifles could be a bigger version where the ADS would give you better control over the spread and recoil.

Without reducing the spread of the weapons by A LOT this game will be horrible in competitive play.[/QUOTE]

For competitions this is quite on. The spread is far too high and it is very random. Aim at the chest and hold the fire button down. If you burst for the head you will loose. RNG should not determine who’s the better player/team. SMG fall off would be nice as well. At medium-long range you can get out sniped from an SMG if their aim is good enough.


(Hundopercent) #35

[QUOTE=Kendle;307246]The main thrust of my argument, which is being lost, which I guess is my fault for not labouring it, is that any changes to weapon behaviour should not be “changes for competition”, i.e. we end up with the same guns behaving differently on standard pub servers compared to competition match servers.

IF there are changes to weapons THEN they should be done by SD and apply to the game as a whole, not just something used in leagues and ladders.

(I know COD has a “hardcore” mode but that’s mis-selling if ever I saw it as “hardcore” is only used in “low skill” leagues, the top teams all play standard (core) mode because it requires more individual skill)

What I really don’t want to see is an SDK released and the “community” (i.e. small group of people out of self-interest) change weapon behaviour, I’d much rather any changes be made by SD and apply to everyone.

In other words I’m not arguing against more accurate guns, I’m arguing against a community modder making the guns more accurate for organised competition only.[/QUOTE]

If SD doesn’t change it, it would be nice for a pro mod to do it for them. While I agree with what you’re saying, in the games current state the spread is unacceptable (competitively.) If OSP decides to make a pro mod and modify the guns with SD that would be nice.