A (probably stupid) Phantom Idea


(B_Montiel) #21

@Gire said:
@STARRYSOCK wasnt he reworked because he was utterly useless against players above copper tier skill?

He still is. Just further annoying than he already was in public games.

When a public game turns proper COD mayhem, a phantom stack is burying the small teamwork there could be for good, grabbing pointless kills that won’t do anything to the map progression. And thats precisely a problem with him in public.

In higher stages, there’s simply no spot for him. When playing 5vs5 or even 6vs6 quite seriously, there are no spots for a phantom as he does not provide any significant advantage for the team, no matter how skilled you are. Many mercs - through different methods though - will give you better results on a same task than Phantom with his cloak and EMP.


(Ptiloui) #22

@B_Montiel said:

@Ptiloui said:

@MuddyGrenade said:
… he doesn’t have the health to fight someone 1v1 with the heavy pistols, and he doesn’t have the resources to fight someone with SMGs.

So doesn’t Sawbonez, and I doubt anyone would disagree on him being one of the strongest merc. Sure he’s a medic, but as Phantom, he can only rely on his weapons to kill. Phantom’s issue doesn’t come from his arsenal, it comes from his utility (or lack of to be precise).

I’ve never seen people trying to coordinate attacks from a phantom + Nader/Fragger + Medic on deployables, but on paper, that sounds awesome. But your point is totally true. There’ll always be a better -or at least more versatile- merc for a said situation 95% of the time. Same for Guardian, Proxy, Kira, Rhino, Bush and the list goes for pretty much a good third of the mercs available.

I don’t play Phantom, but I do like Guardian. But if I’m going for a medic session, I won’t pick her without Aura, Sawbonez or Phoenix as well.

I totally agree that on paper, it seems awesome. I recently watched a ranked Overwatch match of Alphacast (pure curiosity, i don’t even have this game) who tested the rework of Sombra, which is quite a Phantom merc : invisibility, smg, and ability to disable opponents’s ability. This hero doesn’t do that much damage but they really strategically worked with her ability, especially her ult that prevent enemies caught in its radius to use their abilities during 6s.
So when you think about Phantom ability, this is what you think about at first : disable enemy deployables and rest of your team push as you destroy enemies backlines. The difference is that Phantom is too much situational compared to his OW counterpart : if enemies don’t have any deployable or too few, his ability becomes useless, while Sombra’s hacking ability is universal.

But you see the trick here ? We’re talking about ability driven gameplay, when a lot of players (mostly the older ones) want Dirty Bomb more focused on aiming skill than on using abilities. It works wonders in OW because the entire game is designed around each hero’s ability. It will never work that well in Dirty Bomb because the core of the game is designed around gunplay. And as you pointed out, mercs like Phantom or Guardian (but I think Hunter is concerned too), whose abilities are especially designed to act on/counter a small part of the game’s content, will rarely be picked in competitive environment, in which the need of being useful close to 100% of the time is the way-to-go.


(Boory Marks) #23

Actually, I think it was because of Phantom that the Crotzni was nerfed a while back.

not sure if he needs a shotgun


(Press E) #24

@Gire said:
@STARRYSOCK wasnt he reworked because he was utterly useless against players above copper tier skill?

Just checked this video, seems that they hinted towards both.

I actually brought him to ranked a few times though tbh. He was great at disabling medstation camps that were otherwise too difficult to reach, and even countering fletchers who are hot picks in ranked, though sadly that no longer works well with a pulse EMP.
He was very situational, but I had a lot of awesome matches with him, especially since no one really expects someone to bring a phantom in ranked, lol


(B_Montiel) #25

@Ptiloui said:
So when you think about Phantom ability, this is what you think about at first : disable enemy deployables and rest of your team push as you destroy enemies backlines. The difference is that Phantom is too much situational compared to his OW counterpart : if enemies don’t have any deployable or too few, his ability becomes useless, while Sombra’s hacking ability is universal.

But you see the trick here ? We’re talking about ability driven gameplay, when a lot of players (mostly the older ones) want Dirty Bomb more focused on aiming skill than on using abilities. It works wonders in OW because the entire game is designed around each hero’s ability. It will never work that well in Dirty Bomb because the core of the game is designed around gunplay. And as you pointed out, mercs like Phantom or Guardian (but I think Hunter is concerned too), whose abilities are especially designed to act on/counter a small part of the game’s content, will rarely be picked in competitive environment, in which the need of being useful close to 100% of the time is the way-to-go.

Increase explosive cooldown by 1.5x minimum, limit merc stacking, see how it goes and how those would suddenly have some place to shine.

Yes, experienced people want DB more focused on gunplay. But that mostly implies, at least from my point of view, less kills with explosive, which are way too dominent right now, even on 5vs5.

Even though the 130 hp nerfed him strongly on public, fragger is still a strong choice on ranked as he’s still one of the few having access to a pretty much guaranteed kill ability. That’s already 4vs5 and not to say 3vs5 very often, all due to one single explosive ability at every wave.

Remove his implied ability to deny every spawnwave, fragger will get terrible.

Or limit the 1 hit to kill capabilities of most explosives, results could be similar as well.

Of course, fiddling with Phantom abilities and stats is way easier, but SD never really hit what really hurt in this game. As long as explosive/AOE abilities are this strong, you’ll always see stacks of fraggers, artys, naders in ranked, with close no transfer on other strategies, reducing usage of Phantom, Guardian, Hunter… (pretty much 2/3 of the merc would apply in some way).

This has to be said, in 5vs5 situations, Javelin shows way weaker than Fragger, Thunder, Nader, Arty and even Stocker because she has a quite high CD, and an ability which depends on how good your opponents are at forecasting and dodging. Making her and skyhammer, targets to align other explosive mercs with, at least in this very context of 5vs5.


(l2c) #26

I’d rather have ARs, to actually use this “first shot” advantage. The range-dependent visibility of the cloak doesn’t mesh with shotguns and smgs very well.


(LifeupOmega) #27

“How do we make something frustrating to fight even more frustrating to fight? I know!”


(Xerny) #28

The only thing a Phantom player requires is patience, i’ve been camped multiple times by Phantoms with their Refractive Armor who sit in one spot and wait for me to pass by.

The fact that Phantom already has an ability that makes him almost perfectly invisible and make him get up close any merc and just two shot them with melee swings or even one shot them is already an annoying thing to deal with.

By just giving him shotguns you’re increasing his two shot potential to mid range.

His SMGs are great, if you can land headshots with them ofcourse.

So in conclusion;
No, Phantom dosen’t need shotguns, that poor guy has been the main target on every merc discussion, give him a break.


(Mc1412013) #29

@Xerny said:
The only thing a Phantom player requires is patience, i’ve been camped multiple times by Phantoms with their Refractive Armor who sit in one spot and wait for me to pass by.

The fact that Phantom already has an ability that makes him almost perfectly invisible and make him get up close any merc and just two shot them with melee swings or even one shot them is already an annoying thing to deal with.

By just giving him shotguns you’re increasing his two shot potential to mid range.

His SMGs are great, if you can land headshots with them ofcourse.

So in conclusion;
No, Phantom dosen’t need shotguns, that poor guy has been the main target on every merc discussion, give him a break.

I find that when my muscle memory and reflexes agree to work together as intended, starting a heavy atack followed by a few rounds works too. Though its almost never affective against a 200hp rhino


(Xerny) #30

@Mc1412013 said:

@Xerny said:
The only thing a Phantom player requires is patience, i’ve been camped multiple times by Phantoms with their Refractive Armor who sit in one spot and wait for me to pass by.

The fact that Phantom already has an ability that makes him almost perfectly invisible and make him get up close any merc and just two shot them with melee swings or even one shot them is already an annoying thing to deal with.

By just giving him shotguns you’re increasing his two shot potential to mid range.

His SMGs are great, if you can land headshots with them ofcourse.

So in conclusion;
No, Phantom dosen’t need shotguns, that poor guy has been the main target on every merc discussion, give him a break.

I find that when my muscle memory and reflexes agree to work together as intended, starting a heavy atack followed by a few rounds works too. Though its almost never affective against a 200hp rhino

I do not mean to offend, but you must be a madman trying to take a Rhino by yourself, especially trying to shank him with your melee, unless the Rhino is terrible, then you can shank him and shoot him constantly without much to worry, however if that Rhino is a decent player then you are probably gonna get pummeled by bullets and be hit with a long spawn.

However the heavy attack and shoot combo is pretty effective.


(Mc1412013) #31

@Xerny said:

@Mc1412013 said:

@Xerny said:
The only thing a Phantom player requires is patience, i’ve been camped multiple times by Phantoms with their Refractive Armor who sit in one spot and wait for me to pass by.

The fact that Phantom already has an ability that makes him almost perfectly invisible and make him get up close any merc and just two shot them with melee swings or even one shot them is already an annoying thing to deal with.

By just giving him shotguns you’re increasing his two shot potential to mid range.

His SMGs are great, if you can land headshots with them ofcourse.

So in conclusion;
No, Phantom dosen’t need shotguns, that poor guy has been the main target on every merc discussion, give him a break.

I find that when my muscle memory and reflexes agree to work together as intended, starting a heavy atack followed by a few rounds works too. Though its almost never affective against a 200hp rhino

I do not mean to offend, but you must be a madman trying to take a Rhino by yourself, especially trying to shank him with your melee, unless the Rhino is terrible, then you can shank him and shoot him constantly without much to worry, however if that Rhino is a decent player then you are probably gonna get pummeled by bullets and be hit with a long spawn.

However the heavy attack and shoot combo is pretty effective.

I am a mad man a depressed man and a highly stressed out man. Lol