Yes, aimpunch is quite insignificant in it’s current state. Chances from old aimpunch to new aimpunch is almost nonexistent. That update just cultivated this subject to light. Real effects should be presented to community in form of statistics. Did it have any impact? And how much when compared to other updates (pointing at burst rifles). I have this hunch, we are talking about microscopic chances to actual gameplay. Knowledge is power, but ignorance is bliss.
A best of both worlds compromise for Aimpunch.
bgyoshi
(bgyoshi)
#22
@-OCB-Wildcard said:
Now perhaps this is merely something lost in translation due to poor word choice or ambiguously constructed commentary, as that is entirely possible, but the way you phrased this gives off more of a description of a Zerg Rush as opposed to what usually happens within DBN Competitive play; not that it doesn’t occur but it is not typically the go-to strategy as a single Fragger and/or Stoker can heavily impede such an attempt, if not cause heavy casualties to those attempting it.
No, a 5-man ball means everyone is in the same area attacking the same targets at the same time. Whether you set up a crossfire, shoot from the same angle, hide behind the assault, whatever it is, everyone has sight of and access to the same firefight at the same time. You will almost never have a situation where 3 players are luring enemies away while 2 players are sneaking side objectives, or 2 players are poking a flank to distract the assault while the other 3 are coming back from respawn, or a sneaky proxy/phantom/fast class is crawling around enemy spawn to flank the medic for a suicide takedown.
Those things don’t happen
You all have to stick together and fire on the same area. Whether that’s sitting on the roof shooting down while the rest of the team comes in from the side, or poising two players in back while three players crossfire from the front, doesn’t matter. 5 players will be close enough together to assault the other team at the same time. You can’t afford to firefight with 3 players so two players can get behind the enemy to kill the sniper. You’ll just lose if you defend the objective with 2 players so that 3 players can pin the enemy in a flank after you die.
You coordinate a position and assault together
That’s 5v5, it’ll always be 5v5, and it’s not very creative, intense, or fun. It’s sterile and dull, and it’s just the kind of low-effort strategy that pros want
Szakalot
(Szakalot)
#23
i dont want to be offensive or sth, but what game have you been playing. maps are SUPER SMALL, for anything other than what you desribe. There is only ever a single objective, and respawns are far too quick to do anything but pushing the main objective.
6v6 wont change that. 8v8 wouldnt change that either. You’d need at least 10v10, and maps the size of double the old dome
bgyoshi
(bgyoshi)
#24
@Szakalot said:
6v6 wont change that. 8v8 wouldnt change that either. You’d need at least 10v10, and maps the size of double the old dome
In 6v6 Underground you can push with 4 or 5 people while 1 or 2 sneak down the elevator to repair or stealth plant. If they’re covering the elevator you can push with all 6 to overwhelm the top side. Vice versa, you can defend the topside with 5 and leave one down below to cover the elevator. You can’t do that in 5v5, since defending or attacking the top with 4v5 or 3v5 is impossible
In 6v6 Bridge you have all different kinds of split ups you can do to attack the final obj since there’s 3 access routes into the sample room and they all have their own combat zones. In 5v5 you have to push one route at a time.
In 6v6 Terminal the final obj area has three routes with two different combat zones that you can also split your attack between. In 5v5 you have to push one of them at a time.
I could keep going on but yeah. Most of the maps have a final objective that has multiple routes and multiple combat zones. In 5v5 you can’t split your team up between them, you just lose on the spot. In 6v6 you can
Szakalot
(Szakalot)
#25
hmm, not convinced.
In your underground example, no serious defense would mount at the stairs. With the elevator sound its also hard to imagine anyone ‘sneaking by’.
Dunno about bridge either, in 5v5 its uncommon to push a single joke due to all the spam coming your way.
I don’t really recall how serious 5v5 terminal last stage was played, or what the meta is now. Back in the day, typical split was combo one way, and aura/eng/DPS push some other lane.
I’m not sure so much would change. Not that its disgusting or terrible or whatever, 6v6 works pretty well in DB too.
bgyoshi
(bgyoshi)
#26
@Szakalot said:
hmm, not convinced.In your underground example, no serious defense would mount at the stairs. With the elevator sound its also hard to imagine anyone ‘sneaking by’.
Dunno about bridge either, in 5v5 its uncommon to push a single joke due to all the spam coming your way.
I don’t really recall how serious 5v5 terminal last stage was played, or what the meta is now. Back in the day, typical split was combo one way, and aura/eng/DPS push some other lane.
I’m not sure so much would change. Not that its disgusting or terrible or whatever, 6v6 works pretty well in DB too.
We’ve also never seen comp 6v6 because it doesn’t exist, but alas
In all the comp and pub 5v5 I’ve ever seen or played, splitting up doesn’t happen. Yet in all of the 6v6 I’ve seen and played, splitting up is regular and common. Especially in maps like Bridge first obj, where you can hold the bridge and push both lower sides all at once. Unlike 5v5 where you usually only have one person harassing the other side of the 4 that are pushing. With 2 people harassing, the harassment can turn into a legitimate push especially if a player dies right before spawn timers and rejoins on the harassing side instead.
In any case, all of my viewed and played 6v6 games have a much more organic and strategic feel than all 5v5. 5v5 is slow and painful since everyone is dying at the same time and the low ttk + ball grouping makes firefights end in just a few seconds.
watsyurdeal
(watsyurdeal)
#27
Just reading some of the stuff here, I can honestly say two things.
-
6v6 could in theory work well for Dirty Bomb because it works well in general for class based games, where you can have a small groups 3 go different areas and regroup elsewhere. But in truth the maps have to be well balanced for that, and I’m not sure Splash has a definite decision on that. On one end, I feel like they make pub maps, and on the other I feel like they make comp maps, or compromise. But for a map to be truly competitive, anything that becomes a stale mate point needs to be looked at. A good team should be able to hold a point, but often times pub players just do not do that.
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A game without aimpunch is boring? I chuckled hard at that, but no, a game with Snipers, and no aimpunch, is frustrating, that’s why the mechanic exists at all. But the way they added it to affect hipfire is just not fun, at all. We’d better off with visual only aimpunch, and having to compensate our shots for recoil and spread. We could really take a LOT of tips from Overwatch in that regard, and how we handle Assault Rifles and LMGs. SMGs really should just be face melters, but only in certain ranges. But that’s really more of a weapon discussion than a general game one.
I said it once and will say it again, the ONLY first shot advantage you should get, is being able to deal damage to a target while they are still reacting to you. That’s about 0.2 seconds, and in Dirty Bomb’s case with good aim and prefire, you will be able to get away with a lot of crazy kills. Which is ironic considering this game came across to me as more of an Arena Shooter, not this Counter Strike ish bull crap.
OCB-Wildcard
([ *O.C.B.* ] Wildcard)
#28
@watsyurdeal said:
Just reading some of the stuff here, I can honestly say two things.
6v6 could in theory work well for Dirty Bomb because it works well in general for class based games, where you can have a small groups 3 go different areas and regroup elsewhere. But in truth the maps have to be well balanced for that, and I’m not sure Splash has a definite decision on that. On one end, I feel like they make pub maps, and on the other I feel like they make comp maps, or compromise. But for a map to be truly competitive, anything that becomes a stale mate point needs to be looked at. A good team should be able to hold a point, but often times pub players just do not do that.
A game without aimpunch is boring? I chuckled hard at that, but no, a game with Snipers, and no aimpunch, is frustrating, that’s why the mechanic exists at all. But the way they added it to affect hipfire is just not fun, at all. We’d better off with visual only aimpunch, and having to compensate our shots for recoil and spread. We could really take a LOT of tips from Overwatch in that regard, and how we handle Assault Rifles and LMGs. SMGs really should just be face melters, but only in certain ranges. But that’s really more of a weapon discussion than a general game one.
I said it once and will say it again, the ONLY first shot advantage you should get, is being able to deal damage to a target while they are still reacting to you. That’s about 0.2 seconds, and in Dirty Bomb’s case with good aim and prefire, you will be able to get away with a lot of crazy kills. Which is ironic considering this game came across to me as more of an Arena Shooter, not this Counter Strike ish bull crap.
I agree that any section of map that becomes a stalemate needs to be looked at and reworked, I’ve said this for years; in particular 1st phase Bridge, Underground, and Terminal come to mind with maps that can easily become obnoxiously drawn out in their 1st phase. I do understand that 6v6 could work, but at the same time the game has never been balanced around the format. Ultimately it means that changing it now, with the current circumstances present, would just invite more problems into a setting already riddled with unfixed bugs and neglected issues. Aimpunch is a touchy subject, and one I typically avoid discussing, where often-times people are dead-set in their stance on the matter. Typically, I find attempting to convince them of anything outside their opinion on the matter to be akin to talking to a brick wall.
If anything I don’t mind it so much as I object to the degree of sway it has on bullet trajectory; with some guns aimpunch is so severe that landing that first shot and continuing to land consecutive shots, especially headshots, means fighting back while under that fire is futile as every shot will likely miss its target entirely. This is especially true when you consider that in the formats the game is balanced around on PTS servers, with merc limits active, people will focus their fire on targets of key value; when multiple people are shooting you in such a manner the aimpunch is obnoxious to deal with even with cover, as revealing any part of your body to them will reward you with insane amounts of aimpunch. There is a reason why the Focus Augment is considered as strong and useful as it is these days; aimpunch doesn’t stack for one gun shooting alone but SD ironically neglects to say whether that applies to being shot by multiple people.
Sure you could argue you should be behind cover and retreating in that situation, but you can’t play that passively in Dirty Bomb; playing as such will lose you the match almost every time. Besides even with minimal exposure of your body for them to shoot at it’s still chipping away at your health, all the while hindering your ability to do anything to retaliate in response. It’s basically creating a isolated mini-stalemate between the one being shot at and those focusing them down, the same issue that plagues more than a few maps in this game during one phase or another.